chord trouble

[HeyCoolSong]

I've been playing mando for a few months now, and I continue to struggle with chording. Not just transitions, but just forming many of the chord shapes to begin with. I do pretty well playing single note melodies. I have also studied some music theory and have learned how to read both tab and standard notation, but chords are proving to be extremely difficult for me. Any advice for practice exercises or anything I may be doing wrong, or any other advice would be greatly appreciated.

[bigskygirl]

Just start with two finger chords and get used to playing along with them. You can progress to three finger chords and eventually the four finger chop chord. Heres one chart I found after a quick Google, there are lots more out there. Have fun learning and welcome to the Cafe.

http://www.tennesseesounds.com/Articles.asp?ID=252

[Tobin]

I've been playing mando for a few months now, and I continue to struggle with chording. Not just transitions, but just forming many of the chord shapes to begin with.

Can you be more specific about what the trouble is? Are you having trouble reaching the frets? Trouble arching over the other strings? Trouble holding the pressure for clean notes?

First thing I would look at is your left hand shape and position. How are you holding the mandolin neck when you are chording? Would it be possible to post a photo of your left hand on the neck in your usual position for, say, a two-finger G chord and D chord?

Are you fretting the chords with your fingertips and not the pads of your fingers?

[jshane]

I think Tobin is right--- there are so many things that can cause so many types of chord "problems". A few pics or better still a 10 sec video showing your issue will likely get you better responses. There are awesome players here and awesome teachers here, and I bet you get a lot of positive feedback.

[belbein]

For me, the "chord problems" were that I started learning some, then learned some others and forgot the first group, and nothing stuck. So I finally decided to learn a song I like, using just 3 chords in one key (D, of course). Then to the I, IV and V, I added a 7th and a minor so the song would sound better. When I go to the next key (G, of course), I've already got 2 in my head (everyone knows G, and I got the V from the previous key) ... and I keep playing the first song, so now I'm up to ... uh, how many? ... can't count on my fingers 'cause they're frozen in that five-fret G stretch.

Anyway, the point is that for me, I had to find a reason to learn the chords, rather than just learning a bunch of chords just to learn a bunch of chords.

[k0k0peli]

Anyway, the point is that for me, I had to find a reason to learn the chords, rather than just learning a bunch of chords just to learn a bunch of chords.

Back in the day, I sat around with a jug of wine, a guitar, and a bunch of pop-rock-folk-etc songbooks WITH CHORD DIAGRAMS. Learning chords, and when and where to use them, was a snap. So was transposing, after a bit of practice. Ick, I don't like that in Bb, try it in G maybe, etc.

And after a bit, I started drawing my own chord diagrams in songbooks lacking such, especially when needing 6ths, 9ths, diminisheds and augmenteds, stuff like that. Too bad there's not much commercial demand for such songbooks with mando chords. Of course, one could draw mando chords or tabs NEXT to the guitar chord diagrams. Just flip the guitar's lower four strings to make a mando chart.

It's amazing how writing stuff down can impress it into our memory. Write out the lyrics. Write chord names in appropriate places. Write the tabs. Draw the diagrams. Get blank music paper and write the notes, the melodies and harmonies, copied or transposed from scores. Then, play from your notes. Do that with a few hundred songs and they become part of you. That works especially with unusual tunings on any instruments, like my Irish-tuned mando (GDAD) and Koch semi-chromatic harmonica. (It's like two Richter-tuned diatonic harps, with a slide.)

[ralph johansson]

For me, the "chord problems" were that I started learning some, then learned some others and forgot the first group, and nothing stuck. So I finally decided to learn a song I like, using just 3 chords in one key (D, of course). Then to the I, IV and V, I added a 7th and a minor so the song would sound better. When I go to the next key (G, of course), I've already got 2 in my head (everyone knows G, and I got the V from the previous key) ... and I keep playing the first song, so now I'm up to ... uh, how many? ... can't count on my fingers 'cause they're frozen in that five-fret G stretch.

Anyway, the point is that for me, I had to find a reason to learn the chords, rather than just learning a bunch of chords just to learn a bunch of chords.

I'm a retired university lecturer in math. When students told me "I forget this formula, this theorem, etc." I would always tell them: "It's because you tried to memorize them. Learn them instead.", in other words, the key to memorizing is understanding. Don't learn chords, learn harmony, how chords are constructed, how they connect and resolve. And then find out where they are on the fretboard and how to voice them in different ways.

[Phil Goodson]

I suspect that your left hand may not be in the correct playing position. This can make forming chords very mechanically difficult.
Just a guess.
How about a picture?

[HeyCoolSong]

Thanks, all for the tips. In response to Tobin, I think my biggest problems are reaching across the fretboard and arching over the other strings, but only on 3 and 4 finger chords. I do ok with 2 finger chords and I don't have a problem with pressing down hard enough for a clear sound. I also have a lot of trouble forming bar chords. I suspect that Philpools suspicion is correct. I play with the tips of my fingers. I tried using the pads of my fingers, but that seemed to make it more difficult to arch over other strings. I will post a pic as soon as I can.

[Jon Hall]

Make sure your fingers are in the correct position. The fretting fingers should not be perpendicular to the fret board. They should be at an approximate 45 degrees.

[Tobin]

Thanks, all for the tips. In response to Tobin, I think my biggest problems are reaching across the fretboard and arching over the other strings, but only on 3 and 4 finger chords. I do ok with 2 finger chords and I don't have a problem with pressing down hard enough for a clear sound. I also have a lot of trouble forming bar chords. I suspect that Philpools suspicion is correct. I play with the tips of my fingers. I tried using the pads of my fingers, but that seemed to make it more difficult to arch over other strings. I will post a pic as soon as I can.

OK, that's a good start. Pics would help. The next question would be how the palm of your hand and your thumb are positioned. Ideally, you should be cradling the neck between the side of your thumb and the side of your index finger, with a gap between the neck and the 'web' part of your thumb. Your palm should not be touching the back of the neck and your wrist should not be bent.

A common mistake for new players is to bend the wrist and try to support the back of the neck with the palm of the hand or the big fleshy base of the thumb. This flattens out the hand, bends the wrist, and prevents the fingers from being able to arch properly. Again, pics would go a long way in assessing this.

Everyone's hands are shaped differently, and have different length fingers in relation to each other or to the size of the palm. Some folks can do full 4-finger chop chords without thinking twice, others struggle for months or years to make it work. But even for small hands like I have, the 3-finger and 4-finger chord shapes are doable if you pay attention to the wrist, thumb, and palm positions. The like of your knuckles needs to be sort of turned in-line (approximately) with where your fingers need to go, so your fingers can arch over the fretboard at an angle. You don't want your fingers parallel to the frets; they should be at an angle that will vary depending on the chord.

These are pretty crummy photos, but here are pics of a 3-finger C chord and 4-finger G chord. Notice that my hand is not up flat on the back of the neck, and only the side of my thumb is on the neck, allowing my hand (knuckle line) to turn in a manner that lets my fingers reach out to the frets. Each finger reaches to its designated fret/string location without having to splay apart.

Also note that, depending on the chord shape and finger, some are using the very tips while others are more between the tip and the pad. Longer fingers could arch better and use more of the tip, but we all use what we have. I won't pretend my form is textbook perfect, but it should at least give you an idea of how to reach and arch for these chords.

[JeffD]

Back in the day, I sat around with a jug of wine, a guitar, and a bunch of pop-rock-folk-etc songbooks WITH CHORD DIAGRAMS. ...Too bad there's not much commercial demand for such songbooks with mando chords.

I agree. These kinds of books are everywhere for guitar.

Well I found one for mandolin. Just out. The Mighty Mandolin Chord Song Book.

No financial interest, but it looks very useful for exactly this purpose. You need to supply your own wine.

[Bhappi777]

I’m ultra newbie (callouses just forming) and struggle with just the two-finger D chord! My index and middle fingers just don’t want to make that shape on the 2nd fret. But I won’t let it hold me up and will keep moving through my lessons ensuring I spend time practicing this chord daily!

[Denis Kearns]

Buy a mandolin cafe coffee cup with the chord diagrams and learn them with your morning libations!

[CarlM]

I’m ultra newbie (callouses just forming) and struggle with just the two-finger D chord! My index and middle fingers just don’t want to make that shape on the 2nd fret. But I won’t let it hold me up and will keep moving through my lessons ensuring I spend time practicing this chord daily!

A few things to help.

First, are you using a strap? Most people use a strap and it helps a lot. A few people get by without one but they are the exception.

Second, how is the neck position. I keep it a little less than 45 degrees. Everyone is different and you have to experiment. A little bit up or down can make a lot of difference.
If you have a lot of tummy or are looking at your fingers you may have the mandolin rotated around the axis of the neck. You want it pretty straight up and down. The in and out direction, rotation about your body can make a difference also.

Third, finger position should be close to the frets just behind them, not halfway between or on top of them.

Fourth, pressing too hard causes a host of troubles. Most people press too hard unless they have been schooled on it. To know how hard to press do the following exercise: Just touch a string at one of the fret locations. Do not press it down. Pick back and forth making clicks but no note. Gradually increase pressure till you just get a tone with no buzzes or rattles. This is how hard you should press for picking or chording. Any harder just has bad effects nothing beneficial.

Fifth, your fingers should be oriented along the neck like a violinist, not across like a guitarist.

Finally there are stretching exercises which can help. You may be able to find things on You Tube. I had some shown to me by a yoga teacher and by a pro guitarist.

Good luck.

[TX2AK]

Chords are hard - that’s a reality. My wife hates learning and playing chords, and she is a great fiddler! If you just want to play melodies, I’d go that route.

[Marc Katz]

also, if your mandolin is not setup well, you may have to work a lot harder than most of us would tolerate. with the high string tension of the mandolin, if the action is not set up carefully (especially at the nut), it can be very hard to hold down the strings when playing near the nut.

[pops1]

Use the second and third fingers, not first and second. I think it makes that open D chord easier to fret. And yes set up, set up, set up.

[Mark Gunter]

I’m ultra newbie (callouses just forming) and struggle with just the two-finger D chord! My index and middle fingers just don’t want to make that shape on the 2nd fret. But I won’t let it hold me up and will keep moving through my lessons ensuring I spend time practicing this chord daily!

Good advice above. I see you just joined us in December, and this is your first ever post! Welcome to the cafe! Keep working on it, and let us know about your progress from time to time.

[UsuallyPickin]

Get Rob Meldrum's free set up book here on The Cafe'. Use .10's, extra light mandolin strings until you gain calluses and strength in your hand muscles. Keep in mind not to over grip your instrument as it will just wear you out. Lokk into the proper position to hold your mandolin. Chris Thile has a good video on this. Enjoy the process. R/

[Marguerite]

Thanks, all for the tips. In response to Tobin, I think my biggest problems are reaching across the fretboard and arching over the other strings, but only on 3 and 4 finger chords. I do ok with 2 finger chords and I don't have a problem with pressing down hard enough for a clear sound. I also have a lot of trouble forming bar chords. I suspect that Philpools suspicion is correct. I play with the tips of my fingers. I tried using the pads of my fingers, but that seemed to make it more difficult to arch over other strings. I will post a pic as soon as I can.

Both things you describe are extremely difficult and not for beginniers.

If you do barré, it's not customary to play notes on the upper strings that are on lower frets. If you need that kind of combination, which is really rare, it's better to use two fingers instead of barré.

and the famous "chop chord" with 4th finger on G-string, 3rd on d, 1st on Astring, 2nd on E-string is not for beginners either. I would advise beginners to play chop chords over 3 strings and drop the 4th finger, or do a combination 1-2-3 over 3 strings. (like D major: A - F# -D on G-, D-, and A-string.

[ralph johansson]

To me many of the differences between mandolin and guitar are automatic: On guitar you are concerned with reaching across the wide neck, on mandolin along the narrow neck. Bringning your fretting hand to the neck (after securing it in place), your thumb wil land in different places relative to the neck, just land, I've never forced it anywhere, and after an accident in 2008 I have very little control over that hand.

I would suggest you forget about four note chords, like the infamous G chop (the first chord I found on the mandolin) altogether, three note chords connect better. E.g., 7-9-10-* has the same range as the G chop, and no doubling. Personally I dislike the so-called two-finger chords with one or two open strings -- again, they don't connect well.

Etc. etc. etc.

[Altmandw]

Just start with two finger chords and get used to playing along with them. You can progress to three finger chords and eventually the four finger chop chord. Heres one chart I found after a quick Google, there are lots more out there. Have fun learning and welcome to the Cafe.

http://www.tennesseesounds.com/Articles.asp?ID=252

Having this question from many students over the years, I put together a transcription of Woody's Rag to provide an exercise to go in sequence to 2-finger, 3-finger, and 4-finger chords that has been useful for some folks.

[OhioAndy]

Don Julin has a course running right now at his website that covers the three finger, three string, Jethro Burns style chords. They are all incredibly easy to make and are movable and thus easy to remember. I'm learning a lot from that course and it's added a lot to my chord knowledge and ability. Highly recommend it.