Lines over a Tri-tone Substitution

[MandoJason]

Hey all, I hope you're enjoying your mandolins on this fine day...so I am reviewing some swing/jazz theory stuff preparing for the mando symposium...regarding the use of the tri-tone substitution:
1- does anyone have any "go-to" lines/phrases, or even a road map you're using when improvising or creating a run over the tri-tone sub? (i.e. the whole tone/diminished scale or are we sticking to chord tones of the tri-tone, all of the above?
2- is this device used by rhythm player/section for tension approaching the Root or is it more commonly used as the soloist in creating the tension...or again, is it yes to both?

What I've been doing in my recent practice is experimenting with a diminished run I learned from Steirnberg in a lesson a couple years back. It sounds awesome but I don't want to overuse it and as I am trying to better understand the tri-tone subs function (tension/release, replacing the V7 chord approaching the I) I would like to see/hear what the jazz/theorists folks are doing. I am also finding interesting tension by just playing chromatic lines and approach notes (if G is the root/target tone I've been incorporating a F# to a G# then the G...this kind of thing)

Any/all thoughts, advice, etc. are greatly appreciated.
Jason
www.fauxgrassmusic.com

[T.D.Nydn]

I don't use "go to " phrases,I learn scales and then constantly improvise lines.as far as tritones are concerned,I use all four chord inversions when playing ryhthm and then passing chord substitutions, like diminished.the ryhthm player uses these to keep things always moving,the soloist uses this to bring the listener tensions and resolutions.as far as the tensions your seeking,there are endless ways to do that.thats what's so much fun about experimenting with sounds in jazz.just can't cover it all here,but pentatonic substitution can bring you almost anywhere .

[MandoJason]

Thanks alot, makes sense...I'll work up a few more scales from my jazz books and keep plugging away...take care, thanks again

[DavidKOS]

I don't use "go to " phrases,I learn scales and then constantly improvise lines..

Add that to using the chord arpeggios and I'm on board.

How do tritone subs function? Exactly as that, a substitute for the standard changes.

iim7 - V7 - I maj7

Dm7 (DFAC) to G7 (GBDF) to Cmaj7 (CEGB)

The most typical use is to alter the V7, G7 so GBDF becomes G7b5, GBDbF - re-spell that to Db F Abb Cb, and it is a Db7b5. (Technically this is a half-diminished chord.)

Then the root movement is chromatic, D Db C : Dm7 Db7b5 Cmaj7

The ability to pivot between the two 7b5 chords a tritone apart is the whole basis of this technique. It gets more involved with 9th chords or other added color tones, etc., but the same basic principle is at work.

[DavidKOS]

1- does anyone have any "go-to" lines/phrases, or even a road map you're using when improvising or creating a run over the tri-tone sub? (i.e. the whole tone/diminished scale or are we sticking to chord tones of the tri-tone, all of the above?
2- is this device used by rhythm player/section for tension approaching the Root or is it more commonly used as the soloist in creating the tension...or again, is it yes to both?

1. Whole tone scales will work well, chord tones, other scales with notes altered to match the chords, anything and all, whatever works. Many players have formulae they use for these changes, others wing it.

2. Both. Rhythm players can "feed" and/or respond to the soloist by altering changes, melodic soloists can add tension by using tritone subs. Use your ear and taste.

[jshane]

....Use your ear and taste......

Yes.

If you play what you hear in your head you actually dont have to memorize anything or have "go-to" riffs all set to spin out.

Use the theory to DESCRIBE and UNDERSTAND what your head creates (if you want to), but do it after the fact.

I had a musical mentor that beat me over the head with this concept. And I, like everyone else I guess, ignored this plea for the longest time. Until I found myself musically boxed in...replete with musical intellectualism, but playing the same tired (but oh-so-well musically-justified) stuff, rehashed into whatever musical context was offered.

I finally realized what this mentor was actually saying, and adopted his advice. It was hard to let go of my previous chops, and my music was simplified to the extreme for a long time (which was humbling since I had convinced myself that the speed and "complexity" of my playing was really nifty). But I have to say that the freedom and passion that simply playing what you HEAR in your HEAD engenders is magical, and real, and utterly complete.

So I know that I tend to sound like a broken record about this, but when I read a post about "go-to" lines, or "playing an appropriate pentatonic scale over the chord changes", or other things that seem to be using intellectual understanding as a substitute for musical creativity, my old mentor's words ring in my head, and I feel like there needs to be at least one voice warning of the potential musical shackles this approach can generate.

[Ted Eschliman]

Here's a lesson on what I call the Augmented 11th Scale. I use this as a road map for V7 chords. For me, it's easy to think a major scale, lowered 7th, raised 4th, all based on the note that's a 1/2 step above the tonic. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but this shows you how you can practice it within the context of FFcP:
Fresh improv; spicing up your V7 chords


Audio accompaniment at the bottom.

[DavidKOS]

Yes.

If you play what you hear in your head you actually don't have to memorize anything or have "go-to" riffs all set to spin out.

Use the theory to DESCRIBE and UNDERSTAND what your head creates (if you want to), but do it after the fact.

..... But I have to say that the freedom and passion that simply playing what you HEAR in your HEAD engenders is magical, and real, and utterly complete.

So I know that I tend to sound like a broken record about this, but when I read a post about "go-to" lines, or "playing an appropriate pentatonic scale over the chord changes", or other things that seem to be using intellectual understanding as a substitute for musical creativity, my old mentor's words ring in my head, and I feel like there needs to be at least one voice warning of the potential musical shackles this approach can generate.

Make that two voices.

I advocate studying all sorts of technical things, like the exercises Mr. Eschliman presented using the lydian dominant (b7 #4).

What I do not like is using licks as a plug and play substitute for true creativity. Yes, learn all sorts of patterns and ideas and tricks but when you improvise be in the moment - and that means use you ears and inner musicality to come up with your own expression.