Slurred notes

[fernando.f]

I would like to understand how to play slurred notes on a -- Neapolitan -- mandolin. As an example, please find here below the very first notes from the very first study of C. Munier, Scuola del Mandolino



I thank you so much for your kind attention -- and hopefully a reply !

F

[Franc Homier Lieu]

I believe that is a phrase mark, not a slur. From Wikipedia: "A phrase mark (or less commonly, ligature) is a mark that is visually identical to a slur, but connects a passage of music over several measures. A phrase mark indicates a musical phrase and may not necessarily require that the music be slurred. In vocal music, a phrase mark usually shows how each syllable in the lyrics is to be sung."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...bols#Ornaments

I don't think it would be possible to slur the passage you asked about.

[Martin Jonas]

Legato marks in mandolin music are used in different ways by different composers, which makes it difficult to be definitive about it. In modern mandolin compositions, I would always assume that tremolo is intended only for notes specifically marked as tremolo (two or three strokes across the stem), or if the composer has explicitly written "legato means tremolo" on the score. Otherwise, legato/slur marks just mean that the player should try to soften the transition between notes to the limited extent that this is possible in a percussive instrument such as the mandolin.

In Golden Era mandolin music, such as the Munier you have quoted, tremolo was generally more widely used than is fashionable these days. In the absence of other indications of the composer's intentions (e.g. in the text accompanying this study), I would probably assume that Munier intended the entire phrase to be played as a continuous tremolo. Given the fingering marks, the phrase is intended to be played entirely on the D string, shifting to third position for the final two notes. That is consistent with all-tremolo, as the string change would break up the legato.

That doesn't necessarily mean that I would play it that way -- when playing Munier or other Golden Age music I find myself using much less tremolo than the composer would have wanted.

Martin

[mandopops]

I agree, it appears the intention is to be played all on the "D" string.
When playing a continued phrase, it does not have to be all in tremolo. It may be the case here. It can also be played very legato keeping the steady pressure on the fretting fingers and slightly releasing the pressure at the end of the phrase, with just a micro sec pause. Hard to describe.
As usual, it brings me to a Vicari lesson. There were a few instances where he had me do this in a Vivaldi Violin passage during a slow movement. Though I do like to use tremolo, maybe more than Martin.
Joe B

[Martin Jonas]

It can also be played very legato keeping the steady pressure on the fretting fingers and slightly releasing the pressure at the end of the phrase, with just a micro sec pause. Hard to describe.

Yes, I agree -- that's what I meant by "the player should try to soften the transition between notes to the limited extent that this is possible in a percussive instrument such as the mandolin".

Martin

[mandopops]

Martin,
I must say you said it a lot more fancy than I did. Well put.
Joe B

[JeffD]

For woodwind it would be a slur, i.e. do not tongue these notes. In violin the expectation I was taught was it should be one bow direction, all done in one bowing. Others have said differently, saying it you can change direction buy you have to hide it so as not to interrupt the flow. The idea is to avoid and "formal" note beginnings.

With mandolin I have been confused about this. I haven't played much music written for the mandolin explicitly. I would trust Martin on this.

[k0k0peli]

One solution: play with a felt pick. Uncle Luc played his bowlback thusly for softer, less percussive pieces. I still have his last one. It's fire-alarm red, 1.75 inches long, and 1 inch wide and 1/4 inch thick, tapering to about half that at the point. Yes, it's a *bit* quieter than a solid pick, and a bit trickier to control. But tremolos with it are soft and fluid.

[mandopops]

Yes, pick direction is important.
On the Vivaldi I was working on with Mr. Vicari, he had me play the passages all down strokes. Steady and even.
Joe B

[fernando.f]

First of all, I must thank you all for the prompt and useful replies. As a mandolin ultra-rookie, I cannot but refer to other instruments, like the piano, where a legatura di portamento does not imply a totally different way of pressing the keys while on a violin the way you connect notes together with a single bowing is totally different from a detaché.

But now I must quit to open a new thread on Domenico Scarlatti's Sei Sonate per Mandolino -- I must find the sheet music, but I don't know where !

Bye for now !

[margora]

This particular passage from Munier is as good an illustration as any why early 20th century mandolin notation, being borrowed from the violin, can be confusing to a modern player who might not be aware of the performance practice of the period. As Martin suggests, the passage is meant to be played with a continuous tremolo, all on the D string, with the indicated left hand fingering (which I personally would not use, but that is a different issue). Legato in this instance is redundant.

[DavidKOS]

In Golden Era mandolin music, such as the Munier you have quoted, tremolo was generally more widely used than is fashionable these days. ..... intended the entire phrase to be played as a continuous tremolo. Given the fingering marks, the phrase is intended to be played entirely on the D string
.....
That doesn't necessarily mean that I would play it that way -- when playing Munier or other Golden Age music I find myself using much less tremolo than the composer would have wanted.

Martin

Good point, but I prefer the older style with tremolo, so I'd also be sustaining the tone with a smooth tremolo.

It's that German mandolin influence. They weren't big on tremolo.

I agree, it appears the intention is to be played all on the "D" string.

Joe B

Yes, by the fingering it would have to be.

This particular passage from Munier is as good an illustration as any why early 20th century mandolin notation, being borrowed from the violin, can be confusing to a modern player who might not be aware of the performance practice of the period. As Martin suggests, the passage is meant to be played with a continuous tremolo, all on the D string, with the indicated left hand fingering (which I personally would not use, but that is a different issue).

Thanks to all posters - this is one of the details of mandolin playing I love.

I prefer to use tremolo often, not sparingly as is the current trend. I guess you could say I prefer to use period performance practice and play it like they would have before the rise of the modern German school.

[margora]

"I prefer to use tremolo often, not sparingly as is the current trend. I guess you could say I prefer to use period performance practice and play it like they would have before the rise of the modern German school."

Modern Germans play Munier and Calace using appropriate performance practice (if rather different instruments and plectra), which is to say tremolo where it typically would have been used. The difference arises in baroque and early classical repertoire (e.g. the Beethoven pieces) where the early 20th century Italians would have also used tremolo but not modern players, at least those who are knowledgeable about musicological advances. In this regard, modern Italians are like modern Germans.

[DavidKOS]

Modern Germans play Munier and Calace using appropriate performance practice (if rather different instruments and plectra), which is to say tremolo where it typically would have been used. The difference arises in baroque and early classical repertoire (e.g. the Beethoven pieces) where the early 20th century Italians would have also used tremolo but not modern players, at least those who are knowledgeable about musicological advances. In this regard, modern Italians are like modern Germans.

Well, I guess I was inaccurate. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Martin Jonas]

That doesn't necessarily mean that I would play it that way -- when playing Munier or other Golden Age music I find myself using much less tremolo than the composer would have wanted.

I should probably expand on this, as I do agree with both David and Robert that for original mandolin music of this period (Munier, Calace etc), extensive tremolo is both intended and appropriate. As can be seen from my various home recordings, I do use quite a bit of tremolo when playing this kind of material. Nevertheless, I do suspect that the players of the period used it even more than that. For one thing, I tend to play quarter notes with single strokes in pieces that are moderato or faster (with some exceptions where the context and style demands it), whereas more traditional players are likely to play virtually all quarter notes tremolo unless in a very fast piece or specifically notated staccato. Indeed, some of the old method books say categorically that all notes from a quarter note upwards must be played tremolo. I also try to minimise simultaneous tremolo of both first and second mandolin, as it clutters the arrangement (again, unless context demands). These are, however, personal choices and depend on the specific piece. I am not against tremolo as such.

Martin

[DavidKOS]

I also try to minimise simultaneous tremolo of both first and second mandolin, as it clutters the arrangement (again, unless context demands). These are, however, personal choices and depend on the specific piece.

I'm with you - but if the 1st and 2nd mandolins are in unison/octaves or exactly phrased harmony lines, and IF they tremolo tastefully together, then they can both use tremolo.

Some of those Russian balalaika/domra groups do this very well.