Satisfaction at sessions, a new way?

[DougC]

I had a great time last night in Minneapolis at a session, mostly Old Time and bluegrass
so the procedure was not Irish as I'm familiar, but the usual soloing around the circle method. I got an idea and, if I may, I have a suggestion about session procedure that I think I'll share with the 'Cafe'. (This is from my PM note to Chris).

I was scrambling to learn the tune before it 'got to me' around the circle. Why not have everyone play together a number of times at the start? My idea goes something like this. The leader introduces the tune, then everyone plays it three or four times, long enough to get a groove going, and then have solo breaks around the circle. We'd loose the clean break at the end. But there would be more satisfaction in learning or honing the tune into a better state.

Also I'd love a small 'break out' session, maybe at the end of the evening, of the 'hot shot' players doing either solo or group playing. This idea came from your request to have the "Bentrup" player do a Monroe tune. I think this would not only be fun to watch but it would provide some satisfaction for the experienced players who are a little tired of playing the old stuff. We could see what they think is cool and they would have fun playing their favorite tune. Satisfaction all around. Eh? What do you think?

[David L]

I think you are wanting to mix apples and oranges. In Irish sessions, everybody plays the melody. In "soloing around the circle" everybody improvises their lead. Playing through the tune several times, then soloing around, would be way too many times through for me to enjoy. I like the Irish convention of playing the tune three times, then on to the next tune. Old-time fiddle jams tend to play the tune many, many more times before changing tunes. Just a personal preference, but not something I would want to see done.

[OldSausage]

The leader introduces the tune, then everyone plays it three or four times, long enough to get a groove going, and then have solo breaks around the circle.

I think no: what you should do is go home and learn the tunes and then next time be ready. It's part of the challenge and the learning experience of a bluegrass jam. It's not always easy, but that's really the whole point.

[sgarrity]

It really depends on what kind of music is being played. On vocal songs you just have to get the melody in your head and be ready to jump in if you want. On instrumental numbers It certainly can take a bit to get the tune in your head. One of the best run and most enjoyable jams I've attended was an old-timey jam in richmond. The jam leader would call the tunes (with input from the other jammers), start them off, and we'd normally play through the tune a few times and then pass solos around. Sometimes it was individual solos, sometimes all mandolins or all fiddles, sometimes we'd trade sections of the tune, then we'd end playing the tune all together a few times. The music was mostly old time with a dose of bluegrass and Monroe thrown in. Everybody that attended that jam absolutely loved it!

[Tobin]

I struggle with this sometimes as well. A new tune I've never heard before gets played at a jam, and I only get to hear it once or twice through before someone tries to pass it to me for a break. I still don't even have the chord progression in my head yet, and there's no way I'm going to be able to run off on an improvisational solo without accidentally diverging, which tends to cause me to crash and burn. I kinda have to be on autopilot with the direction of the tune before I can start thinking about how to construct something over the chords. Difficult, to say the least!

But to be honest, this is part of the fun of the bluegrass jam methodology. If you know the tune, you get a chance to shine and do something unique or brilliant during your break. If you don't yet know the tune well enough, you can wave off your break (I do this when warranted) or try to fake your way through it. But at least you get the choice. I find it more interesting than everyone just playing the same thing, at the same time, along with each other like they do in ITM or OT (which isn't to say I don't enjoy doing that either, but it just lacks the musical diversity of alternating breaks between players). If it's a tune I like, I'll write it down, go home, and woodshed on it for next time.

Your idea of everyone playing together for the first 3-4 times might work, but it would really depend on the tune, the number of people who already know it, and the ability of everyone who doesn't know it to pick it up. Honestly, I would think this method could make things worse if most people don't know it, and they're all trying to 'find' it at the same time. It could quickly turn into a cacophony of noise, and no one would truly be able to learn it because there are so many wrong things being played at the same time. It really just depends on the group. And even if they did this, would you really get much more in the way of lead time to learn it before your turn comes for a break?

It's a real issue, though, and I sympathize. Even looking at it from the other side, when trying to introduce a new tune to everyone else at the jam, I haven't found a real successful method yet. Handing out sheet music or chords may help a few people. I usually try to get a guitar player with me on the chords well enough that we can play it through a few times for others so they can start to get it in their heads, and then I'll hand it off to someone who can fake their way through it. Sometimes it takes doing this with the same tune over 3 or 4 different jam sessions before they really start to "get it" well enough to be comfortable taking breaks. And yeah, sometimes it just dies halfway through if everybody else falls apart. But we eventually get it going.

[Mandoplumb]

I agree with David L. Many years ago I went to Galax just to listen and jam, an old time fiddle player asked me back him on the stage with his entry I agreed to do it. We played Walking In My Sleep. After about 20 times thru ( all just melody) I was getting ready to wind it up, would throw in the Jimmy Martin run at the end of a verse and he would just pick it back up and continue. That's been at least 25 years ago and I have never played Walking In My Sleep since, I played it enough that day to do me for life.

[bigskygirl]

I don't think so either. I go to a few different jams each week and play a little bit of everything, someone calls a tune and whoever knows it along with the more experienced musicians that can improvise take a break. If you don't want a break then pass and if you try a break and crash everyone just keeps going until you get back on the tune, it's a supportive and fun environment at both. No one judges anyone...out loud at least....and we all do what we feel comfortable with. There are times that even if I hear the tune 10 times I still couldn't/wouldn't take a break until I could go home and work on it slowly.

I am pretty new to BG and jamming and I wouldn't like an expectation of having to do a break BC the group played it so people could learn it. If there's a tune I like I'll note it and go home and learn it and take a break next time. I'm working my way up to jumping in on an unfamiliar tune with a simple break, for me it's a speed issue not so much of a knowing the tune issue. I know enough songs now that I can do something in my break, it won't be as notey and eloquent as the pros do and I'll probably crash but the fun is in the trying.

[DougC]

I suppose it is what you are accustomed to; taking breaks. But it seems that a groove gets going just as we end, once around the circle. And that groove really makes it easier to play a solo. It just seems like sitting around for my chance to 'fake it' is a waste of time. I'd rather play the tune rather than waiting. I'm not getting any younger...ha, ha.

[JeffD]

But it seems that a groove gets going just as we end, once around the circle. .

In a less bluegrass more old time jam we play the tunes many times to get the groove going and then to ride on it. We usually don't take breaks much.

My experience is that a more bluegrass jam is more about the breaks - getting ready for your break, taking your break, seeing how well it went over, than it is about the groove.

[DougC]

In a less bluegrass more old time jam we play the tunes many times to get the groove going and then to ride on it. We usually don't take breaks much.

My experience is that a more bluegrass jam is more about the breaks - getting ready for your break, taking your break, seeing how well it went over, than it is about the groove.

Thanks for the comparison.

But it seems that in Bluegrass sessions, one gets way too much time on chop chords. I'd like to play the tune along side some good players. And not just once!

BTW I'm just using myself as an example; this notion is about the idea of satisfaction.

[bigskygirl]

I think you'll have to find some good players. In most jams I go to they are open, the players are similar in skill, and everyone takes a break if they want to and I'm very satisfied. I know of other jams that one has to be invited to BC the very good players are there. I would suspect though that as long as you are attending BG jams, no matter skill level the circle and passing the break is the norm.

Can you invite a few other like minded players and start your own jam?

[JeffD]

That is my complaint about bluegrass in general. It is not a genre that has much playing the melody with. One is either the soloist or the back up. That is my experience anyway.

Bluegrass is just that way, I think at its core. I think it is because really it is not a jam genre, it is a performance genre. Folks will disagree I am sure but this how I have seen it, and one just has to deal with what is, as opposed to how one would like it to be.

Old time, and informal jams of bluegrass music in a not so orthodox bluegrass style, we all play together, on melody when we want, on back up when we want, stepping aside for an occasional lead player, and enjoying the playing with each other more than how we probably sound together. This kind of thing only seems to happen for me with friends with whom I have been playing for many years, and with whom I play a variety of different kinds of music.

[JeffD]

In fact I have participated in many jams that someone of our group, or a spouse or friend, recorded us with a cell phone and posted it on social media, and upon listening I cringed. Often this is the case.

What I have learned is that this is the great mis-understanding about jams, or at least the jamming I like best - which is it is not a performance, not meant to be a performance. The joy, the blueberry juice running down our chin, what we are after, is the playing, the groove, the unified together fun made of separate fun, the transcendence that occurs while wondering around in tune-space.

If we were playing for an audience, or a dance, we would certainly do things differently, organized breaks maybe, and specific assigned parts maybe, pre-arranged tune list and repetition number, and an overall consciousness of how we sound. But we are not playing for an audience, and if people come to listen, they hear what they hear.

In other threads we have hashed out the idea of a jam at a pub or coffeehouse, where the venue is hosting us for the entertainment we provide for other patrons, and we are playing together for the fun of playing together, and how these goals clash, and when are we being taken advantage of, etc. A whole 'nother thread. Sufficient for this thread is that there is a difference between jamming and performance, and I am uncomfortable when the line between the two gets blurred.

Where I get into trouble is going to one type of playing event with the expectations of the other playing event. Either a performance where jamming is encouraged, or a jam where we are expected to entertain. Tell me what you want and I can and will do it.

[farmerjones]

A jam's a jam. Two types: OT & BG.
OT = everybody plays together.
BG = them that can, take a break.
And because jams are confluence of many like minded people, fewer rules the better.

That being said, and I get "satisfaction," sometimes a better thing
is to just play music with one other person.
The problem being, splitting off is a form of jam raiding.
So duet playing needs to be done at another time, or place.
But if you ever get a chance to get together with just one other
person that you gel with, a lot of great music can be made.
Jams are like buffalo herds. You can only go as fast as the slowest buffalo.
And you have to only speak buffalo. (if you get my drift)

[Relio]

If I hear a song at a jam a few times I'll go home and learn it. I don't like when one song is played for too long. I also don't like when the singer lets 3 or more people take a break in a row. If you don't have enough verses for the number of people taking solos, split the breaks in half between players.

Learning the melody of a new tune at a jam is a struggle for a lot of people. This is something I'm working on right now. I turn on the bluegrass music station and just work on picking up melody's. I try to do this at least 20 minutes a day. Good luck in your journey!

[JeffD]

And because jams are confluence of many like minded people, fewer rules the better.

Amen to that.

[JeffD]

If I hear a song at a jam a few times I'll go home and learn it.

That is another really good point. Among the things a jam is not intended to be, is a learning experience.

That is not to say you can't learn a lot at a jam; my gosh you can learn a metric ton. What I mean is it is not the job of the jammers to provide teaching, or teachable moments, or provide any handles with which you can pick up what is going on. A good jam should encourage newbies, should make newbies feel welcome, but not cater to them.

In this regard I have used the analogy of the generous pilot. He may let you into the cockpit, he may even from time to time explain what he is doing, but his mission is to safely fly and land the plane, not to give you a flying lesson.

[Jeff Mando]

I think no: what you should do is go home and learn the tunes and then next time be ready. It's part of the challenge and the learning experience of a bluegrass jam. It's not always easy, but that's really the whole point.

And once you learn those 30-40 songs you can play in any BG jam for the next 40 years! The songs never change.......

[bigskygirl]

We have one guy who only plays rhythm guitar. Been playing for more 60 years and he's not interested in taking breaks but he's there to have fun and provides the beat. He's very good and keeps the tune going when it falls apart on breaks now and again when one of us crashes.

The circle is usually 8-10 people and sometimes only one or two people know the tune so it comes around to you pretty quick. Sometimes people know half the tune and play that and the next person picks up the second part. The only rule I know of is to come and have fun trying. We have about 6 people who come and listen, we play for a few hours and then break for a snack and go home.

[JeffD]

And once you learn those 30-40 songs you can play in any BG jam for the next 40 years!

More than that. So many tunes use the same or similar chord progressions, in the same or even different key.

[bigskygirl]

I heard a very good player play Bill Cheatham on a tune that was definitely not Bill Cheatham...not sure if he just played the wrong tune....hey, it happens....or meant to do so but it goes to the above comment that many tunes are similar.

If I'm not careful I can begin Salt Creek and veer off into Red Haired Boy, I look at it as an opportunity to improvise and get back on the tune before anyone notices....

[farmerjones]

There's only a million tunes with some permutation of a I, IV, V chord progression. You can't blame that on one style. It only goes to show how easy playing music really is. But don't kid yourself into thinking you're playing the melody when you're just playing the chord progression. Indeed, that's where "tune veer" gets introduced. That's good jamming when it gets morphed, and folks start inventing things. A purist's nightmare! "If you want to hear 'Ol Bill, go buy the record."