Incoming! New digital mixer

[mandotim1955]

You can do the slide thing on the Behringer XR18 as well, but it also has the facility to toggle between a view of a few faders or a view of all 16 faders at once. Does the Mackie work cross-platform now? I looked at it when considering going wireless, but it was dedicated to IOS devices, and only accepted one type of docking connector. Big weakness for me.

[Astro]

What about the mackie DL 1608 ?

[almeriastrings]

All of these different mixers have different feature sets, and price points. The DL1608 is IOS only and also requires an external router. It really depends what you need, and also, what you don't need. The only way to know which is most suitable for your application is to compare features very carefully. There is quite a range of them out there now....prices have come down, and feature sets have gone up...

[Charlieshafer]

I use a Mackie DL1608 for small road shows where I don't want to carry the big analogue Allen and Heath. In all instances with the Mackie, I'm not using monitors or in a space where effects matter. I just have the Ipad in the slot intended for it, and don't wander around with the extra one that would require a router. If you already have an ipad, it's a very easy system to learn, very flexible with the eq'ing, and levels. The build quality is actually very good, and I have to say, it's very quiet. I was pleasantly surprised at the sound quality. It won't be the weakest link in the sound chain, that's for sure. Price-wise, if you have an ipad, it's well worth it. If you need to buy an ipad for it, then it's not so great a deal that I wouldn't consider a lot of other alternatives. I wouldn't necessarily not get the Mackie, but I'd be shopping. It is a bit bigger than the little thing that started this thread, but still pretty light.

[TonyP]

Thanks so much for starting this thread Almeriastrings. I have been watching this whole trend with much interest as this is a potential dream come true for me. And now that I have an iPad as part of my music kit for set lists, practice etc it's perfect to add its function to controlling a PA. I hope to hear more about the Berhinger as it get field tested in places where there's lots of wifi traffic. That's my main concern because it seems if you lose contact with it there. No manual way to control it. But I love the small size and incredible flexibility. Did you say it has a feedback buster in it too?..

[lukmanohnz]

Nice unit and review. It's astounding to see how mobile computing devices are changing designs in so many product categories. I'm waiting for the electric instrument world to start replacing pickup switch, tone and volume pots with a slot that accepts an iPhone...

[almeriastrings]

Tim has the Behringer... I have the Soundcraft. They are the 'same kind of concept' but the implementation is different. Which would suit best would very much depend on your precise needs and preferences. Personally, I like the fact that there are no apps (at all) required with the Soundcraft Ui's - it all runs completely cross-platform on HTML5. From what I can tell so far, it all works rather well, too. I have the smallest version, the Ui12 here (as I already have larger digital desks available) and I specifically wanted something for small gigs that involved the absolute minimum of gear to haul. There is a larger Ui16 version of the same mixer, however. Even that is pretty small...

These do both feature DBX AFS-2 anti-feedback systems that are very effective. I believe the Behringer has something similar, but I have not tested it. Tim can probably tell you more about that unit.

[Dave Reiner]

I know these inexpensive new mixers have short delays that can be applied to a channel, but do any have a delay for running front and rear speakers in a large hall? I only have to do that once or twice a year, but it would be handy to have it built in...

[almeriastrings]

No. Certainly as far as the two small Soundcraft's are concerned.

That is not really the market for these.

For that functionality, you are looking at the larger desks. The Presonus Studio Live I sometimes use has it, as does the Behringer X-32 and similar units, but these smaller, compact, mixers are really aimed firmly at much smaller venues.

If you only need it rarely, I would probably just pick up a stand-alone device, such as a DBX Drive Rack. They are going pretty cheap, used, these days.

[Dave Reiner]

No. Certainly as far as the two small Soundcraft's are concerned.

That is not really the market for these.

For that functionality, you are looking at the larger desks. The Presonus Studio Live I sometimes use has it, as does the Behringer X-32 and similar units, but these smaller, compact, mixers are really aimed firmly at much smaller venues.

If you only need it rarely, I would probably just pick up a stand-alone device, such as a DBX Drive Rack. They are going pretty cheap, used, these days.

Thanks. I have a Drive Rack PA+ already, but the delay is limited to about 11 feet / 10ms, and seems to be just for alignment of highs and lows.

I could use an outboard Lexicon MX400 with up to 5 sec delay, but was just hoping the new desks might include longer delays.

Dave

[Toni Schula]

Thanks. I have a Drive Rack PA+ already, but the delay is limited to about 11 feet / 10ms, and seems to be just for alignment of highs and lows.

I could use an outboard Lexicon MX400 with up to 5 sec delay, but was just hoping the new desks might include longer delays.

Dave

QSC touchmix allows up to 100 ms / 34,4 m / 113 ft in the auxes an main output.
AH Qu series allows up to 170 ms.
Behringer X32 series has quite powerful matrix output which offers more than just delay. EDIT: i'm not sure whether you need one of the internal FX processors to add delay at the X32?

As you see, these are bigger formfactor and bigger budget needs than the UIs.

Don't know what the line 6 M20d has to offer, as their app has no demo mode, and this is where I got my wisdom. I am still looking for a need to buy one of these fascinating small digital mixers
I never was interested in a mixer which totally relies on a tablet, so I never looked at the Mackies.

[almeriastrings]

The M20D has no speaker delay, either.

I believe the smallest current digital mixer that has it is the QSC Touchmix that Bauzi mentions.

It is a fairly common feature on "big" desks, of course. I imagine the reason that it is not often featured on smaller desks is that the designers just don't envisage them being used in large venues where this is necessary. Their target market is small-medium clubs, bars, coffee houses and that kind of gig.

[Charlieshafer]

I'm curious, Dave; what size room are you playing in that needs delay? Or are you mostly outdoors where it helps when the rear speakers are so far away?

[TonyP]

All of these different mixers have different feature sets, and price points. The DL1608 is IOS only and also requires an external router. It really depends what you need, and also, what you don't need. The only way to know which is most suitable for your application is to compare features very carefully. There is quite a range of them out there now....prices have come down, and feature sets have gone up...

Sorry A-strings about the mix up and saying Berhinger when we were talking about Soundcraft. What I really should have said was thanks for just talking about this new breed of digital mixer, period. What I wish was I could get all the basics to understand all the stuff you guys are talking about.

For instance, the need for an external router. And some don't. The sales people at the big box stores aren't always helpful because I asked him about the wireless and he said they all have to hook into the local wifi. Where I understood that some of the mixers make their own wifi and you just connect with it. Compound this with I know squat about all things Mac and don't even use or carry a cell. But I got an iPad used because it looked like it could be useful. Well the guy in the Mac store told me the port was only a charging port and there was no outside connection to other computers except wifi. My buddy told me yesterday in a discussion about mixers and iPads that was totally not true. So I take it, it's possible to hook the iPad physically to the ui12 in case the wifi goes screwy? Sorry if this stuff was already discussed but my ignorance is not bliss at this point.

[almeriastrings]

OK. Regarding the Ui12. Mine was a very early pre-normal release and there were a couple of issues that arose. There have been two circuit board revisions since then and the ones one sale now have those issues solved. I have a new (latest one) en-route and I'll report on that when it turns up. There is also another firmware update coming.

This is a very nice mixer. I really like the combination of features and compact size.

The Soundcraft Ui12 and Ui16 do not need an external router. They make their own secure wi-fi hotspot. They can also be configured to join an existing network if that is preferred, and they can also connect via cable (ethernet) simultaneously in addition. The internal wi-fi is 2.4GHz. They are very flexible, because you can use an external router too (say a 5GHz unit), but this is not required normally. I found using the mixer alone as a hotspot absolutely fine. No problems at all.

Ethernet to iPad is not officially supported by Apple... however, it can be done... if you want a hardwired backup system, however, probably the easiest/cheapest way is just to use a small laptop with an ethernet port. Just about anything will do. I tested this in an ancient Windows XP one I had lying around. Worked fine.

The ports in iPads are certainly not just charging ports, however. They are used for various things, from connecting digital mixers and recording interfaces to connecting cameras. The connectors have changed from the iPad 1 through 2, 3, 4 and onwards so you need to bear this in mind if looking at mixers such as the Mackie which uses that port (or the Alesis and Focusrite audio interfaces which also use it).

I have been using other digital mixers (Line 6 M20D) "live" in performance situations for about 12 months now, and never had a connection problem. So now I feel pretty confident with them.

[TonyP]

This is a very nice mixer. I really like the combination of features and compact size

Thanks for the clarification. There's a lot of knowledge that early adopters take for granted us more cautious types don't get.

There has been a sea change that is afoot that it took reading the bio on Elon Musk for me to even know was possible. They mention that with the Tesla cars you can report a problem and their engineers can access the car while it's charging at night and update its software. Your wipers that were not working right the the day before now work right when you wake up the next morning. It's pretty cool to think that you can own a piece of equipment that is so flexible as to just be fixed with software updates.

You mention that it needs Ethernet connection to control it. So the mystery usb port you mention on the Ui12 is to slow? Even to just do an emergency dumbed down just volume control?

This whole thing of control is a problem even when you are using a regular analog mixer. Case in point I bought a used cfx12 Mackie mixer wanting some flexibility. I had a big gig coming up and everything in the world conspired against me and I didn't get a chance to get familiar with the mixer. It was pretty much a disaster and I didn't even pull it out again until a year later. Turns out it was not me, the buss assign and mute switches were dirty and intermittent! So coupled with me feeling not so confident I just assumed it was me and not the equipment.

So the idea of having everything sealed and not subject to the elements like faders and switches appeals. Coupled with a fraction of the size of the rack full of gear this replaces at the fraction of the cost.....I'm sold if it's implemented and supported properly. So as I contemplate trying to fix my switches I'm keeping a close eye on what goes on with your experience with the Ui12. If it turns out the quick fix on the Mackie doesn't work I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to go and get a Ui12 than try and have this board fixed.

But I also would like some kind of way to know that the new board has been updated like what's going on with yours.

[almeriastrings]

You do not need Ethernet to control it. It is there if you want it, though. The whole thing is 100% controllable via wi-fi: iPad, Android tab, or anything else. I can tell you for sure this is leagues ahead of a Mackie cfx12. No comparison in performance. It is like having a mixer + a whole rack of very good outboard, and the RTA (Real Time Analyzer) is incredibly useful too, once you get used to interpreting it. Together with the various EQ's (including parametric and graphic) it is easy to dial in the sounds you need, and the reverbs are very good also. The 'mystery' USB ports are apparently going to support a mouse, and possibly other things.... not that you'd need that with a touch-screen device. The larger model Ui16 has an HDMI port, though that is not yet fully implemented. I am told it is 'in progress'.

Did I mention there is a 1/4" jack for a momentary foot switch, so you can mute all FX/reverbs during announcements, etc?

[Charlieshafer]

Sweet, Almeria. Things will get really neat when we get wi-fi mics and monitor sends, eliminating cables altogether. This sounds like it's worth the splurge.

[foldedpath]

Sweet, Almeria. Things will get really neat when we get wi-fi mics and monitor sends, eliminating cables altogether.

That's the dream all right. I would love to have everything wireless. But I'm not buying into that idea until WiFi is as standardized as the 3-prong AC outlet we plug our gear into. And the latency is low enough.

Think about it for a minute. With all the fascination for wireless control of digital mixers, why don't we have a wireless link to powered PA speakers? There are ways to cobble that together now, but nobody wants to risk a show on it. One glitch and the show goes down.... which isn't the case if you temporarily lose a link from an iPad controlling a digital mixer. The mixer just keeps its current settings and the show goes on.

There also issues when you start stacking up additive A/D-D/A conversion like digital mics into digital mixers into digital speakers over a wireless connection for everything. How much latency can the performers handle? There is no latency in a wired system.

We're getting closer, but not there yet. There is still a lot to iron out in spectrum allocation and knocking down latency, before it's as solid and dependable as a wired connection.

[almeriastrings]

Yes... I have used the Line 6 system quite a bit (the Stagesource speakers), and although they are powerful and sound really good, the digital connections (AES/EBU cable) are very "fussy" and more prone to problems than a simple analog cable..one ever-so-slightly dirty pin and you don't just get a bit of crackle... you get absolutely nothing. There's also some latency involved... not much, but it is there... and that's over cable...

No doubt wireless (of some sort) will arrive one day, though....I certainly think in terms of live mixers, analog is on its way out. The advantages of these new tablet-driven devices are huge. I was using my M20D last night, and was just able to sit there in the audience with an iPad and tweak everything just perfectly for 6 different acts. They were all really pleased with the sound... I was pleased because I had no 'snake' to pack up and carry and no rack to haul... and yet I had a full array of really great EQ's and other tools literally at my fingertips and the entire rig took less than a quarter of the setup and breakdown time, and weighed a small fraction of what I would have needed just a few years ago.

[oldwave]

For those contemplating a wireless mixer, perhaps a basic wireless standards over is in order.
The original standard was 802.11 A and B, 2.4 gig for B and I thing 5.8 gigahertz for A which was used for more commercial operations. 2.4 has a longer range than 5.8, but 5.8 is less congested. Then came 802.11 G which is good for 54 mobs. 2.4 gigahertz and still a limited amount of channels, decent range. Then came 802.11 N which began to subdivide channels making channel conflicts much less an issue, better speed (bandwidth) and available in 2.4 or 5.8 gigahertz. Finally the latest standard is 802.11 AC, many channels available, much greater bandwidth and operates in 5 gigahertz bandwidth with multiple streams (8 versus 4 in the N standard .
I am not sure what bands are being used in the Behringer and or the Soundcraft, but I would expect 802.11 N at 2.4 gigahertz to maximize the range. N is pretty decent and these device may have auto channel sensing for conflicts and move the conflicting channels around, higher end access points like Cisco and HP have that automation. My self, when I purchase either the Behinger small version or the Soundcarft will carry an AC router with me as a backup for challenging wireless environments, plus a cat 5 cable as a third redundancy. I have designed mission critical wireless bridging applications of the National Park Service, where I am a senior IT specialist, one link is 55 miles across Lake Superior thats is up 99.99 of the time. Wireless networking is very mature and reliable and I would not hesitate to use it in audio applications with the proper planning for redundancy. It is the present and future for audio and its convenience and reliability is robust for these smaller applications that most of us use. A major venue or touring company I would use either fiber optics or wired ethernet for connectivity, but clubs and smaller shows, wireless will be acceptable for reliability. Modern computers are also stable and one needs to use common sense using them in audio applications as far as what is one them etc. I use a dedicated 8 year mac laptop for my audio work and it has very little on it except that. Hope this is helpful, there is plenty of information on wireless networking on the web, just make sure you pay attention to encryption security!!!!
Anyone who needs a little help you are welcome to PM me.

[almeriastrings]

Y
No doubt wireless (of some sort) will arrive one day, though....

I should have checked.... not exactly a concert system... but you can see where this is headed.

[foldedpath]

I should have checked.... not exactly a concert system... but you can see where this is headed.

Yep, I've heard of people cobbling together wireless instrument transmitters and receivers to do this, for a few years now. It was usually for things like ambient Muzak though, or distributing sound to other rooms outside the performance area, where latency and mission-critical performance wasn't an issue.

For the sake of those new to this kind of thing, I think it's important to distinguish the degree of mission-critical performance needed for different WiFi applications.

Controlling a mixer module with an iPad doesn't require a rock-solid, ultra low latency connection. If there is a tiny lag between what you see on the screen when moving a fader or FX control, and what actually happens to the audio in the mixer, you might not even notice it. The show won't go down if there is a temporary drop-out either. The mixer just stays in its last configuration.

The only real mission-critical WiFi devices in most shows are the wireless mics and wireless instrument connections. This is where you need an absolutely solid, uninterruptable signal. It also requires low enough latency not to bother the performers. In-ear monitors are a big help here, because it shortcuts the sound coming out of the main house speakers. But if band isn't using in-ears, any added digital delay caused by a wireless connection to the speakers could be a problem.

I think latency may be one reason we haven't seen more of these WiFi speaker setups. The other being just plain reliability. It's adding a second mission-critical audio link on top of whatever else you're running, like wireless mics.

As a side note, a few years ago I remember reading about some experiments QSC was running in-house that used a modulated laser beam, for a connection from the desk to powered speakers. This was for big outdoor venues, to avoid cable connection hassles. As I recall, it worked well, but there were some concerns about potential interference from stage smoke effects, rain, and the occasional balloon or UAV camera flying into the beam. I don't know if they or anyone else ever went further with it, but it was an interesting idea. It was totally secure (as long as the beam wasn't interrupted) and impervious to the local RF environment.

[TonyP]

I obviously don't have the credentials to know what the problems are with this, but why if we have a local wifi generated by the mixer like the soundcraft can't we broadcast the final mix so those with a cell and headphones so they can adjust the feed volume etc themselves? Live sound seems like such a losing battle when outside with bunch of folks drinking beer and the people competing (and winning) the volume competition. I always feel so conflicted when somebody from the furthest away comes up and says he can't hear us while I see the folks up front wincing if I turn up. And if we turn up, the crowd just starts yelling to be heard. That would truly be wireless mains.

[Charlieshafer]

I'm only ten minutes or so from Sennheiser, so I'll stop in and try to scam an audition set. They'll think I'm ready for some sort of rubber-room confinement, I'm sure, but it's worth a try.

I'm thinking anything wi-fi would really only be effective over short distances, as any degradation of the signal would be a problem. But hey, things change.

Tony's idea for outdoor shows is interesting, and easily do-able right now with the technology from online concert streaming sites like Concert Window. Even without the added people, outdoor sound is very challenging. There's a festival close by in New Haven, and the headliners are usually phenomenal, from years past with Sonny Rollins, Neville Brothers, etc, to this year with Lucinda Williams. The sound company goes to great lengths with a cost-n0-object approach. The problem is the concerts are held on the New Haven green, in the middle of the city, with the sound bouncing off various buildings. If you walk around just a little, instrument can completely disappear from the mix. Move 20 steps to the left, and Sonny goes from load and clear to simply gone. But, that's part of the fun of outdoor venues; the sound isn't perfect, the port a johns smell, and the lines in front of the good food vendors are way too long. And the bugs. And, wait... why do we do this?