1924 Martin Style A Tuner Maintenance.

[mandrian]

Hi,

I just bought the mandolin on EBay. Seems nice, but tuners were really stiff to tune up, so I'll take them off when I restring next week and clean and lubricate all the component parts.

It looks like the issue might be that the the tuner posts have moved slightly off vertical and pulled towards the body. Does this seem likely and how would I solve the problem? By reaming the holes in the headstock? I want to use the tuners if possible as they seem solid and look better on an old mandolin.

Any advice greatly received.

Regards,

[Jeff Mando]

Cleaning and lubrication are probably all that is needed. Just take your time and "work" them slowly. I wouldn't ream away any wood. I don't think that is necessary. I couldn't tell if your mandolin has bushings or not. If not, sometimes adding a thin bushing will provide some cushion while tuning. You can also lightly lubricate the inside of the bushing and the string post.

[JEStanek]

Cafe Member Paul Hostetter has a great tuner maintenance page. Not implying you don't know what you're doing but putting it out there as a resource.

Jamie

[EdHanrahan]

... looks like ... the tuner posts have moved slightly off vertical and pulled towards the body.

As they say: Looks can be deceiving!

Note carefully the side view of the headstock and you'll see that it's thickness tapers slightly from the nut to the head (a not-uncommon design), meaning that the face and back of the headstock are not parallel. In order to keep the gears meshing properly, and the tuner posts at a right angle to the backplate, the standard approach is to drill the holes perpendicular to the BACK, rather than the front, of the headstock. So I wouldn't ream anything!

If the tuning posts were perpendicular to the face, then they'd be twisted relative to the backplate, and the gears might not mesh smoothly.

As to maintenance, Café member Paul Hostetter has written the bible:
http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html
(Edit: Whoops. I was typing while Jamie put in his link to Paul!)

BTW: I've found Tri-Flow to be an amazing lubricant anywhere that you don't want to attract dust & dirt, even on aluminum and plastic window sashes!

Maybe not "recommended", but I have used oil on the gears just as a quick & dirty fix to prove that they can work, helping soften or cut thru any crud or corrosion. And THEN go to Paul's full cleaning & lubrication. (Just don't get oil on the underlying wood or it can become mush!)

[mandrian]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. I'll have another look at Paul's page and proceed under the assumption that a good clean and lubrication might suffice. By the way they did not have any bushings. Here's how the front looks.



Thanks!

[mandrian]

Hi,

I took the tuners off tonight and am in the process of taking them apart and cleaning them in line with Paul's guide.

One thing I did notice was that they turned very freely (probably too so) after I started winding them down from pitch. They had been very tight to turn when tuning up towards pitch. I also still think the shafts were pulling towards the body. See the wear on the body side of the headstock holes and also how the tuner shafts themselves look on the plate.

Anyway unless there are other suggestions I'll complete the cleaning and reassemble tomorrow and see if there is any improvement in the patient!

Regards

[graham darden]

Nice old piece. I would love to see some pictures of the entire thing. Thanks, Graham

[mandrian]

Hi,

Success! Worked out better than I had hoped and a big improvement. Thanks for all the advice.

Graham, here's what it looks like. Got it on EBay from a vintage guitar shop in France. Nobody else bid so I got it for £440 delivered. Happy with the price as it came with a newish Guardian rectangular case complete with keys.

[MysTiK PiKn]

I broke one of mine, the knob split in half. I will be touring Mr. Hostetter's site also. It must have been ready to break; I wasn't torquing it very hard. The gear was turning freely, and then started to resist turning - they are all dong that. It's not impossible to turn them. But the maintenance is obviously overdue. I really should have known. A little older than yours. (circa 1900's Puglisi).

I think I can just glue this knob back on the peg. It's exactly 2 halves, and one tiny little chip. I bagged it. The peg is relatively flattish. I want to keep it cos the colour is beautiful ugly brownish yellow.

What glue would be good for mating the 2 plastic halves?

[graham darden]

She is beautiful. Thanks. Bet the sound is incredible as well. Graham

[Michael Lewis]

Many buttons on old tuning machines are celluloid plastic, and often degrade over time. Sometimes they will crumble to bits, in which case they need to be replaced. StewMac offers several different buttons, though exactly matching colors is not likely. One could replace all the buttons and match them that way. ALLPARTS has quite a few buttons but it's not easy to navigate their catalog, and most of their buttons are for guitars. Still worth a look.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Many buttons on old tuning machines are celluloid plastic, and often degrade over time. Sometimes they will crumble to bits, in which case they need to be replaced. StewMac offers several different buttons, though exactly matching colors is not likely. One could replace all the buttons and match them that way. ALLPARTS has quite a few buttons but it's not easy to navigate their catalog, and most of their buttons are for guitars. Still worth a look.

Thanks, Michael. I did that on my '53 J45 guitar a few years ago, allparts, exact copies. And yes, tuning one day they all started to break, all of them, at the same time - it was strange. I got replacements from Elderly. I kept the original tuners, w no knobs, in case I ever sell it.
I just bought this Puglisi, and I was just doing some cleanup on it. Some minor fixes. All the tuner knobs are there, and I think they will be ok. So I want to glue this together, pretty clean break. But I found out that really old plastic is not the same - they tend to not crumble, or maybe just less tendency. This wasn't "crumbling" - this was cracking breakage, clean. The old gibson ones crumbled - it was like dried porridge, just turned to mush - dry mush. ;( But the Puglisi broke in 2 pieces, pretty clean, both pieces are solid.

Would superglue be the thing? Or something else? Epoxy? Maybe more time control in epoxy? The hard part might be fitting in on the rather flat shaft - it's not actually flat - more flattish, kinda shaped. So I am thinking epoxy, and maybe some light clamping somehow while it cures, or solidifies. It will only take a couple drops.

And I still need to overhaul them. The whole story is very similar to the martin in this thread. No bushings, Similar appearance. Lots of discoloration. Old and ugly beautiful, eh.