Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

[JeffD]

There is one disadvantage I've seen, and that's not the fault of SN itself. Sometimes students -- especially fiddlers -- are taught SN in a Folk idiom like Irish traditional music, where SN is valued as a learning tool, but not intended to be the final word on how the music is played in groups. The danger is that they can have trouble then moving off the page and playing by ear, which is the next natural step in the progression of playing this music..

I see this a lot. But like you say it is not the fault of standard notation. It has nothing to do with written music. the problem is a lack of ear training, (and perhaps an understandable reluctance to be as a beginner learning by ear when one is used to competency in reading).

The two skills are important and separate. One does not do the other. Being good at one does not make it less important to learn the other.

[Paleosporin]

The worlds of tabulatures are fascinating. The ap Huw manuscript that I'm playing from contains such examples as these ... it's among the reasons I love to play the music - very stimulating in the ways that the (simple) repetitive figures are manipulated - here's an example:

I'm aware of only a few interpretations of this particular manuscript thus far - each widely varied..

Fascinating, I've never heard of this manuscript. Sounds like an interesting document.

[catmandu2]

Fascinating, I've never heard of this manuscript. Sounds like an interesting document.

Here's a bit of info: http://www.billtaylor.eu/index.asp?pageid=74247

And of course, fwiw (to whom it may concern) - while 'obscure' from a mainstream perspective - "early music" is another example of the opportunities extant outside the domain of SN and its traditions ..

*For clarification - I don't want to sound misleading: I don't possess a copy of the MS and am not reading/interpreting it myself; rather, I'm merely learning/playing the music from the MS (by 'ear') from others who have done the work of deciphering themselves (Paul Dooley, William Taylor, Ann Heymann)

[ralph johansson]

I see this a lot. But like you say it is not the fault of standard notation. It has nothing to do with written music. the problem is a lack of ear training, (and perhaps an understandable reluctance to be as a beginner learning by ear when one is used to competency in reading).

The two skills are important and separate. One does not do the other. Being good at one does not make it less important to learn the other.

Perhaps the question then rather is when and how to introduce SN. When I got started on the guitar in 1957 I knew all about SN, key signatures, the construction of major and minor scales, the relationship between keys, e.g., major keys and their relative minors. I had absorbed all that information in music classes in school. This knowledge enabled me to learn on my own in very systematic fashion, key by key, starting in C and working my way both ways along the circle of fifths (C, F, G, Bb, D, etc.) But in the beginning I didn't trust my ears. It was only when I became interested in, e.g., oldtime and BG, that I was forced to learn and play by ear, and improvise. Of course, this made me a better reader, better at just looking at a score and getting the idea of a printed piece of music.

However, I'm glad that those music classes taught me about key signatures structuring the staff and fretboard. When the piece is in Eb I dont "remember" to flat the b on the middle line; I hear and read it as the fifth of the scale.

[ralph johansson]

This actually isn't true. I know classical musicians who can sight read music and play it with soul and personal phrasing. Sight reading like this isn't the approach of most people here. Its completely valid for one to play music they can't whistle or remember.

If I were to take fatt-dad literally I can't play guitar or mandolin at all, since I cannot form one single musical note whistling.

What it takes to remember a piece of music is understanding it. Far too many people try to memorize a song bar by bar.

[ralph johansson]

Yep I had a frame I slotted card stave blanking bars into, but now I've given up going to the trouble of buying books with unnecessary clutter and distractions on a page. If there's Tablature that's fine, but if it's mixed in with the standard notation on the same page I don't buy them any more. Visually it's like reading two language subtitles, because I sight read both the eye just slips between them and gets distracted. Opposite pages or top and bottom of the page would be much better to read, but best of all is if the tab isn't there taking up valuable printed page space in the first place. I'd rather get full value from the books I pay for and except for rare cases where it can be more useful (cross picking illustrations etc) I feel like I'm paying for fluff and clutter with those dual format books.

To me tab makes sense only as a complement to the standard score; therefore, if there has to be tab I want it below the standard; no big distraction as I refer to it only rarely. Recently I bought two of the Grisman books. On EMD the tab suggests that the recurring bb be played at the 8th fret - without tab it would of course be enough to indicate that the first 12 bars or so be played on the d course (probably ovious, why leave the d course for just one single note?). On Blue Midnite, the tab immediately suggests that the first half of the bridge be play in fourth position, and the second in third. That wouldn't be immediate to the tab only reader, I guess, and I wouldn't see this if the tab was printed on the opposite page - of course, without the tab a roman IV and III in the appropriate places would suffice. (Note, by the way, that all note values, rests, accents, etc. are printed in the SN staff only.

[Mark Wilson]

Good point ralph. One of the struggles I have w/ standard notation is deciding which course to use in spots.

[Tom Wright]

Standard notation is a map. Editorial additions like which course to play on and which fingering to use are like Google drawing your route to destination. Tab is like the step-by-step directions on the side.

That a map does not tell you which route to take is an advantage for some of us. Most professional music does not tell you how to play your instrument. Instructional material does, that's its purpose. Professionals also work to choose which fingerings are best, and it is not always obvious. Spending some time on that question is not a problem, it's a natural activity. Even editorial/instructional fingering suggestions are rarely the only sensible choice, but just one player's preference.

My take is that Suzuki-style teaching, which is kind of classical tab, and tab itself, are like using Siri and GPS to let software do your thinking. It works well but you are dependent on that system which makes choices for you. Leave it as soon as possible in your learning process and work with the map---it's the best way to learn the territory, not just a few routes to a few places.

[tkdboyd]

Professionals also work to choose which fingerings are best, and it is not always obvious. Spending some time on that question is not a problem, it's a natural activity. Even editorial/instructional fingering suggestions are rarely the only sensible choice, but just one player's preference.

.... Leave it as soon as possible in your learning process and work with the map---it's the best way to learn the territory, not just a few routes to a few places.

Saw this the other day Skip to about 1:08, thought the link with the time stamp would work, sorry.

goes to your point and does make one really think about how to approach a piece before even putting your fingers on the fingerboard.

[JeffD]

Perhaps the question then rather is when and how to introduce SN. .

You have nailed it. I really don't know what would be best.

I find that knowing notation helps me with learning a tune by ear, in that it provides a kind of mental furniture on which to place the notes of the tune.

But is that necessary, or the only way, or are their better ways, I don't know. For example, good ear training, and being able to hear and identify an interval might have made learning to read music much easier.

[catmandu2]

Standard notation is a map. Editorial additions like which course to play on and which fingering to use are like Google drawing your route to destination. Tab is like the step-by-step directions on the side.

That a map does not tell you which route to take is an advantage for some of us. Most professional music does not tell you how to play your instrument. Instructional material does, that's its purpose. Professionals also work to choose which fingerings are best, and it is not always obvious. Spending some time on that question is not a problem, it's a natural activity. Even editorial/instructional fingering suggestions are rarely the only sensible choice, but just one player's preference.

My take is that Suzuki-style teaching, which is kind of classical tab, and tab itself, are like using Siri and GPS to let software do your thinking. It works well but you are dependent on that system which makes choices for you. Leave it as soon as possible in your learning process and work with the map---it's the best way to learn the territory, not just a few routes to a few places.

And not just professionals, of course - but simply higher-level engagement of play/study.