Advantages/Disadvantages of Notation (not Mandolin Specific)

[geoffreymbrown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4echOq29d0

(not sure I linked correctly)

I found minutes 2-15 of this to be an interesting discussion of the negative side of notation -- before a lecture based upon notation (also interesting).

Geoffrey

[boblang]

I think notation would be improved if we went back a few hundred years!

At school, I learned of grace notes and ornamentation. You've probably seen older printed music with smaller notes (appoggiatura and acciaccatura), wavy lines (mordents), sideways S (turns), and so on. These add specific ornamentation to the music, but have the massive advantage of keeping the main musical line clear and uncluttered. A beginner can play the music and ignore the ornaments, concentrating on getting the tune right. The ornaments can be added later or not at all, according to taste.

Today the trend is to spell out ornaments directly in linear runs of eighth and sixteenth notes. I suspect that this is because most notation these days is typeset by computer and it's to fiddly to go back later and put in the ornaments. The downside is that we end up with notation that is technically "correct", but is also cluttered, difficult and unhelpful. The clear detail of the wood is lost in a forest of sixteenth notes.

My 2 cents

Bob

[DavidKOS]

I think notation would be improved if we went back a few hundred years!

At school, I learned of grace notes and ornamentation. You've probably seen older printed music with smaller notes (appoggiatura and acciaccatura), wavy lines (mordents), sideways S (turns), and so on. These add specific ornamentation to the music, but have the massive advantage of keeping the main musical line clear and uncluttered. A beginner can play the music and ignore the ornaments, concentrating on getting the tune right. The ornaments can be added later or not at all, according to taste.

Today the trend is to spell out ornaments directly in linear runs of eighth and sixteenth notes. I suspect that this is because most notation these days is typeset by computer and it's to fiddly to go back later and put in the ornaments. The downside is that we end up with notation that is technically "correct", but is also cluttered, difficult and unhelpful. The clear detail of the wood is lost in a forest of sixteenth notes.

Good notation today still uses the traditional symbols for appoggiatura, acciaccatura, mordents, turns, grace notes, etc.
I suppose notation programs have something to do with the practice of writing everything out as if it were part of the melody, but I can add all of those symbols easily on Sibelius, and think it's the same on Finale.

Some musicians think the ornaments are really part of the melody, particularly in certain folk styles, but the standard practice of writing ornaments does have the advantage of making a distinction between essential melody and the extras.

[JeffD]

Summary:

1. Notation doesn't do it all.
2. Notation affects the music.

Gosh he took 15 minutes to say that.

[geoffreymbrown]

Yes, but it takes longer to explain things with Yale students

[JeffD]

[Beanzy]

It used to be that you could get players to read music and just say which style they should play it in. I know that's how I approach things. There's real fun to be had in learning regional and temporal differences in styles so you can just go to a tune or score and apply that. I did a fiddle day last Saturday with David Shepherd from Blowzabella and he was teaching us Norfolk style, French regional differences, neecastle bowing, Sand Dance bowing etc etc etc. this stuff just gets lost if it is not passed on between generations of players. Playing different rhythmic accompaniment styles depending on region and era is another important aspect that is often not passed on. At least the old figured bass scores have preserved some of the clues.

[ModalBliss]

"Q: How do you get a guitar player to stop playing?
A: You put music in front of him"

A joke I was once told by a MUCH older drummer when I sat in with a community jazz band.

I love the discussion on this topic! It's one I've discussed with a lot of different people. When it comes to fretted instruments we have a precarious situation. Sure, you can read the notation but I can play my E here... or here... or even here (if I REAAAAALLY feel like it). Tablature cuts through that trial and error and tells a technician where to put their fingers. We've been using it since the 15th century!

Being able to read notation is SO important. I've had several gigs where a sax player pulled out some blank staff paper, wrote out a quick lead sheet and that's what I went on for the next little while. In addition, being able to transpose or share that music with anyone else... even share the Bb real book with that tenor player... I couldn't do that without a STRONG understanding of notation.

As a student at a non-guitar school, I had to FIGHT to read tablature as part of my juries. (At state school, I had to perform my instrument once a semester to prove I had reached a certain level of understanding) My last jury, I was thrown out for wanting to read a Joe Satriani piece in tablature. I chalked it up to misunderstanding the tradition of fretted instruments.

As a teacher, I first approach the technician side of playing... where do you put your fingers? Slowing fitting in those stretches that are just... UNCOMFORTABLE! After we have that down, we start working on reading the language of notation. Starting by translating between the two. Transcribing some solos or heads from other instruments. Everything is one great big journey! If you can't enjoy the opportunity to widen your grasp, why do it?!

Just my thoughts on it.

[JeffD]

The big three - standard notation, tabulature, and I would add the "Nashville" number system charts, all three are ultimately important to know.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages. Everything you don't know limits you, IMO.

I am most fluent with standard notation, with a strong first position prejudice. I prefer it because I can see the tune, and even hum the tune, directly from the dots. Sight reading a new piece is one of life's great joys. And notation transcends the instrument. I am not chained to playing mandolin music, I can read from any music as easily as from any other.

If I am playing some great player's transcribed solo break, I am wanting to not just play the tune but to play it as Sierra Hull played it, I find tablature invaluable - because often the whole thing is way up the neck and I need to know exactly which finger goes where. So for me, where explicit finger placement is very important, tablature is the way to go.

I think the Nashville system is a very powerful notation system - especially if you are a good improviser, and in live real time situations. I am new to this, but its a lot easier than when I first started learning it, once I get "intuitive" at it I can see it will have some great advantages, not available to me with notation or tab. I like how one can compose a song, or fix a composed song and boom boom boom here is a chart and you do that here, and it would take a whole lot longer if the composer had to write it out in notation. It seems a more direct transfer from the composing musician's head to the paper.

And the disadvantages of each are the polar opposite of the advantages - notation doesn't tell you how to play the tune, tablature does not visually show the flow of the pitch of the tune, and is instrument specific, and the Nashville system relies so much on your familiarity with the genre and ability to provide creative real time content.

Eventually need all three systems, I think.

[JeffD]

Someone is going to say it, so I am going to beat them to it - yes it is important to develop a good ear. Of course. That's a separate thing.

You also have to be able to drive to get to the gig. Lots of things to learn.

[ralph johansson]

The lecturer does not really dwell on the disadvantages of notation, but rather its limitations. Those are certainly not overcome by any other form of notation, such as tablature. Indeed, his two main examples pertain to the human voice (what happens between the notes) and tenor saxophone (to capture the groove and particular phrasing accurately) - these instruments certainly have no frets.

I simply don't agree with those who stress the importance of mastering tab - there is NO professional use for tab as far as I know. Tabs may be used didactically, e.g., to explain the possible fingerings for certain passages, but not really as representations of whole pieces. Sometimes the composer will indicate that certain passages are to played on one string or course only; one example would be JS Bach's "Air" (on the g string); or perhaps on the lower strings in high positions. Such instructions are easily included in standard notation.


And, of course, in colloquial genres, such as Bluegrass, notation is not used at all. Someone says that tab will resolve the dilemma of where to play a certain note. I contend that it's up to the player to find out, or decide, for himself. Maybe that note shouldn't be played at all. When I learn a piece by ear or from notation my first decision will be not to play the tune that way. I may even decide to play it in some other key.

[Joel Glassman]

Tab and standard notation are perfectly good tools.
Tab for initially learning how music is placed on the mandolin, and for advanced solos
to explore a player's style. Standard notation for analysis, composing, playing classical
music and for access to dance or Celtic music [ie. if you play a lot of fiddle tunes].

I believe the basic process in becoming a "roots" musician though is learning music by ear.
People who learn to do this are more flexible and interesting to listen to. More likely
to develop a personal style. It seems inefficient when you're in the "tune collecting"
stage all new players seem to go through. Going back and forth on a recording to learn
the sequence of notes... Frustrating too. The goal is to approximate a tune you don't know
and place it on the mandolin. Listen to it, hum it, play it, "fake it". Takes a couple of years
of hard work and patience to learn this skill. The big reward is becoming a musician
who can play music he hasn't worked on, because it seems familiar. It resembles known music,
can be analyzed on the fly, and played by ear. I think that's hard to achieve with a heavy reliance on tab or notation.

[Nashville]

Everybody's right and everybody's wrong. Depends on the gig. All I need to know is what key the song is in.

Now for learning a tune/melody then either notation or tab gets the job done. For studio work the Nashville number system is great. For work with a orchestra or jazz ensemble then notation is invaluable. For playing with a rock band or many other styles then it's usually ear.

At home I use both notation & tab. At the gig I say "what key is it in?"

[John Ritchhart]

It is best to be able to do both. Many times classically trained people have a hard time without music in front of them. The Professor in this example struggled with his own fight song without the music. Some people (like me) can read music notation but cant sight read at speed. I really need to have the tune in my head to be able to play it. This is the disadvantage of the aural tradition. I should practice sight reading so I can do it.

[sblock]

...
I simply don't agree with those who stress the importance of mastering tab - there is NO professional use for tab as far as I know. Tabs may be used didactically, e.g., to explain the possible fingerings for certain passages, but not really as representations of whole pieces. Sometimes the composer will indicate that certain passages are to played on one string or course only; one example would be JS Bach's "Air" (on the g string); or perhaps on the lower strings in high positions. Such instructions are easily included in standard notation.

And, of course, in colloquial genres, such as Bluegrass, notation is not used at all. Someone says that tab will resolve the dilemma of where to play a certain note. I contend that it's up to the player to find out, or decide, for himself. Maybe that note shouldn't be played at all. When I learn a piece by ear or from notation my first decision will be not to play the tune that way. I may even decide to play it in some other key.

I think this response betrays some serious misconceptions about (or perhaps a serious unfamiliarity with) modern tablature and its role as a form of musical notation. Tab is an ancient form, historically, that predates the "standard notation" used today for most classical music. Put simply, tab can do some things that standard notation can't do (without extensive and tedious annotation), and conversely, standard notation can do some things than tab can't do (but again, without extensive annotation). And they have a huge amount of overlap. As others have pointed out, these notations each have their place, and deservedly so, and neither one is about to go away anytime soon!

That said, to assert that there is no "professional" use of tab is simply wrong, and entirely at odds with the facts. This is not a matter of personal opinion. There are many Baroque pieces for lute/guitar that were written in tab. Most the the printed music available for non-classical folk instruments, in particular for the 5-string banjo, are to be found only in tab, and not in standard notation. Countless professional artists who perform today, and who play in Bluegrass or Oldtime or Americana styles, themselves learned to play from tab. Many recording artists who offer lessons employ tab. Tab is found at many recording sessions (in addition to popular Nashville numbering and jazz-style lead sheets with chords and melody -- and neither of those representations is fully standard notation!). Professionals DO use tab. It's a fact of life.

Furthermore, tab has evolved quite a bit over the years! A lot of modern tab (for example, the type of tab that can be generated by programs like TablEdit) is something of a hybrid with standard notation: it indicates the meter (using standard notation conventions!), note and rest durations (with flags and symbols identical to standard notation!), repeats and codas (ditto), effects like tremolo, pick directions, and a whole lot more. Modern tab indicates ligatures, grace notes, and all that. For some things, tab does a BETTER job than standard notation, for example in handling techniques like slides, hammers-on, pull-offs, note bends, chord brushes, and stuff like that.

Not that standard notation -- which, in fact, is not all that "standard" when it comes to instrument-specific annotations! -- cannot handle these things altogether. It just does a very awkward job.

As for the need to "master" tab, this is unnecessary for many purposes. Moreover, it is equally unnecessary to "master" standard notation. A great many of the recording artists and performers so admired on this forum have mastered neither, in fact -- especially the top "folk" performers. But some familiarity with both standard notation and tab is helpful, without a doubt. And, as the saying goes, "knowledge is power."

[DavidKOS]

It is best to be able to do both. Many times classically trained people have a hard time without music in front of them....I should practice sight reading so I can do it.

Yeah - and any classical player that needs music to play tunes should take a few more courses in ear training.

[ralph johansson]

I think this response betrays some serious misconceptions about (or perhaps a serious unfamiliarity with) modern tablature and its role as a form of musical notation. Tab is an ancient form, historically, that predates the "standard notation" used today for most classical music. Put simply, tab can do some things that standard notation can't do (without extensive and tedious annotation), and conversely, standard notation can do some things than tab can't do (but again, without extensive annotation). And they have a huge amount of overlap. As others have pointed out, these notations each have their place, and deservedly so, and neither one is about to go away anytime soon!

That said, to assert that there is no "professional" use of tab is simply wrong, and entirely at odds with the facts. This is not a matter of personal opinion. There are many Baroque pieces for lute/guitar that were written in tab. Most the the printed music available for non-classical folk instruments, in particular for the 5-string banjo, are to be found only in tab, and not in standard notation. Countless professional artists who perform today, and who play in Bluegrass or Oldtime or Americana styles, themselves learned to play from tab. Many recording artists who offer lessons employ tab. Tab is found at many recording sessions (in addition to popular Nashville numbering and jazz-style lead sheets with chords and melody -- and neither of those representations is fully standard notation!). Professionals DO use tab. It's a fact of life.

Furthermore, tab has evolved quite a bit over the years! A lot of modern tab (for example, the type of tab that can be generated by programs like TablEdit) is something of a hybrid with standard notation: it indicates the meter (using standard notation conventions!), note and rest durations (with flags and symbols identical to standard notation!), repeats and codas (ditto), effects like tremolo, pick directions, and a whole lot more. Modern tab indicates ligatures, grace notes, and all that. For some things, tab does a BETTER job than standard notation, for example in handling techniques like slides, hammers-on, pull-offs, note bends, chord brushes, and stuff like that.

Not that standard notation -- which, in fact, is not all that "standard" when it comes to instrument-specific annotations! -- cannot handle these things altogether. It just does a very awkward job.

First of all, again: the limitations pointed out in the lecture have nothing to do with the tab-SN controversy. Tab does not overcome them, and in the case of the human voice and tenor saxophone (the two main examples) does not even exist.

Secondly: what I'm saying is that I rejcect the notion that mastery of tab is important or even imperative to a musician, e.g., a guitarist or mandolinist. The only time I've used tab is when a song was not available to me aurally or in SN. It was painfully slow as I'm used to getting the idea and structure of a song - and its possible interpretation (key, tempo, phrasing, embellishments) at a quick glance at the score (my main sources are lead sheets à la Real Book, or full piano scores in grand staff). How many tab addicts (e.g., those who even claim that one advantage is that you don't have to worry about keys!) can extract that kind of information from just looking at tab, and transpose the tune to some other key without learning the tabbed version first? One fact pointed ut over and over in the cited thread is that, unless you have very big ears, SN is the most convenient gateway to musical theory, e.g., harmony. There are exceptions, e.g., T Emmanuel who does not read, knows an awaful lot about chord construction, and I'm sure it wasn't tab that got him there. Another example would be Martin Taylor, who knew a lot about these things before he learned to read notation (which he did by listening with a score in his hand).

What I'm saying about professional uses derives from this thread, that I followed a year before joining the Café:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...otation-vs-tab
The most important contributions come from three educators at Berklee (one of them deceased), and at least JimD has done quite a bit of session work. E.g., #168, 170, 171, 176, 182, 185, 186, 203.

HO's and PO's are easily indicated by legato arcs in SN. There are standard symbols for slides, mordents, trills, tremolo, etc. But who needs these except in didactical examples? To me, or just about anyone with some kind of musical ambition, the written score is just raw material for my own interpretation. Which also includes the choice of fingerings and positions.

And, again, the lecture is emphatically not about that.

[ralph johansson]

Yeah - and any classical player that needs music to play tunes should take a few more courses in ear training.

As far as I know classical training always involves some pretty rigorous ear training - you can't really play from a complex score without a good ear.

[JeffD]

I believe the basic process in becoming a "roots" musician though is learning music by ear.
People who learn to do this are more flexible and interesting to listen to. More likely
to develop a personal style. It seems inefficient when you're in the "tune collecting"
stage all new players seem to go through. Going back and forth on a recording to learn
the sequence of notes... Frustrating too. The goal is to approximate a tune you don't know
and place it on the mandolin. Listen to it, hum it, play it, "fake it". Takes a couple of years
of hard work and patience to learn this skill. The big reward is becoming a musician
who can play music he hasn't worked on, because it seems familiar. It resembles known music,
can be analyzed on the fly, and played by ear. I think that's hard to achieve with a heavy reliance on tab or notation.

The right tool for the right job. A musician needs to learn it all. Everything you don't know limits you. Being able to learn by ear is gigantic for a roots musician. Being able to follow the number system is important for the roots musician in session work. Being able to read tab and notation is important if the musician wants to play anything that is not recorded or currently being played.

The problem, I think, is not a heavy reliance on tab or notation - it is an inadequate ear training.

[DavidKOS]

Secondly: what I'm saying is that I reject the notion that mastery of tab is important or even imperative to a musician, e.g., a guitarist or mandolinist.

The only musicians that need to use tab are lute players playing from period scores, which were written in tablature - however the same players could also read staff notation and intabulate music from staff to tab.

As far as I know classical training always involves some pretty rigorous ear training - you can't really play from a complex score without a good ear.

It should indeed, hence my point that classical musicians that cannot play by ear need further training. We had to be able to sight -sing, take musical dictation, etc.

The right tool for the right job. A musician needs to learn it all. Everything you don't know limits you. ......
The problem, I think, is not a heavy reliance on tab or notation - it is an inadequate ear training.

A complete musician can play by ear and by notation. Folk and rock players can get by on ear alone, but for many styles including playing shows or any sort of reading gig, you won't see a note of tab, only staff notation.

[August Watters]

It might be interesting, considering this conversation, to take a look at some mandolin music that is very specific about which note is to be played where -- a century before the rise of mandolin tablature. This exerpt is from Calace's first prelude (op. 45), included in his Metodo per Mandolino volume 6a:



Perhaps the most interesting part about the notation is how seldom Calace indicates fingerings, suggesting how much was implied by the composer, and understood by the player. This elegant language involves writing in a few fingerings and (perhaps) position markers, and is of course in widespread use today among mandolin composers.

I will write in more depth on this soon, on an upcoming blog post -- to be posted soon on the Mandolin Cafe blogs.

[RonEllison]

I use notation, I read and write notation and, in the past I taught notation. I learned to play by ear and learned notation much later. When I started private teaching I used tab so that the students did not have to commit everything to memory by ear. A student can learn to read simple tab in a half hour lesson. Notation would take far far longer and probably loose the student's interest, and therefore loose me money.

These days if I write an arrangement for four guitars I write it in notation. The ideas are musical, not instrument specific, and for that notation is easiest. When I come to record the parts I don't want to take the time to commit each part to memory. It is simpler to work out the fingering once, put that into tab and record from that. Horses for courses, they are both good for what they are good at.

[farmerjones]

A question for this illustrious panel:
Is there piano tab?

[DavidKOS]

A question for this illustrious panel:
Is there piano tab?

Technically, two types I know of, in a way.

One organ (keyboard) tablature...a bit of a stretch, since it was used before the invention of the piano.



Then there is the piano roll, from the days of player pianos and now used for MIDI writing, along with various ways of showing the notes to play on the keyboard:

http://www.choose-piano-lessons.com/piano-tabs.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=pian...IVA48NCh2IdgAC

[k0k0peli]

Then there is the piano roll... now used for MIDI writing, along with various ways of showing the notes to play on the keyboard:

I started my PC computer-music efforts with the AdLib soundcard (ancestor of SoundBlaster) and its Composer software, using a piano-roll interface like your illustration. It is indeed piano / clavier tablature.

As for voice tabs -- I gargled for vocal tablature and, among other things, found this.