Gypsy Jazz Advice

[Normis]

Hey guys,

Rank mando beginner here, looking to re-start my learning after a brief hiatus. For the last few months, I've been really into Django and other hot club jazz. I'd really like to dip my toes into Django-style playing. Does anyone have any good sources for material for a mando AND jazz/swing beginner? The forum search yielded some very aged sources, so i was hoping you guys might have some fresh recommendations.

Thanks all,

Norm

[Mandobart]

Dix Bruce has a couple books out specifically on hot club mando picking. I've been using them for the past year myself.

There are at least a couple of GJ bands with mandolin; I recommend listening to Hot Club Sandwich, Harmonious Wail and Taarka.

http://www.musixnow.com/Dix%20bio.html

[Jim Gallaher]

Scott posted some useful fakebook links in this Cafe blog post on June 8, 2015. I use these charts all the time.

For a good example of using the mandolin in a Gypsy Jazz context, I recommend Stephane Wrembel's "Gypsy Rumble" CD, which features David Grisman. You'll find several standards of the GJ repertoire, but more importantly you'll hear a different feel from the mandolin than you'll generally get from the GJ guitar player.

I had some classes with Don Stiernberg this past week and he refers to this as "stabbing" -- injecting the higher register of the mandolin chords, usually with upstrokes, into the band's overall rhythmic feel. GJ relies on the guitar's "la pompe" rhythm for its driving swing sound and the "stabbing" chord style is a good complement.

Of course, if it's only a few instruments, you'll have to "la pompe" for the other guy's solo. Can't leave him/her hangin' out there on a limb!

Once you're up to speed on the chords (get those major 6ths, minor 6's, 6/9's going), Youtube has plenty of play-along opportunities. It's been a lot harder to find living, breathing human beings but I just came back from music camp and there was a lot of interest in GJ among the swing mandolin students.

For the standards that often show up in GJ but aren't in the aforementioned fakebooks, I use iReal Pro, an app that provides chord charts (no melodies) and playback with the ability to change keys, rhythms, instruments, tempo, etc. It's a handy resource on the edge of a jam when the tune is unfamiliar.

[crisscross]

Dix Bruce has a couple books out specifically on hot club mando picking. I've been using them for the past year myself.

I haveGypsy Swing & Hot Club Rhythm 1 by Dix Bruce. It's nice to learn the tunes' melodies and chords.
A tune I didn't know yet and learned from this book is "Some of these days"

But if you want to learn more about improvisation and are able to read sheet music, I highly recommend "Getting into Gypsy Jazz Violin" by Martin Noorgard. It covers various aspects of improvisation such as variations of the melody, arpeggios, scales.
Most of the examples are playable on the mandolin, no violin specific bowing advice, just nice examples over standards like "Avalon" or "Sheik of Araby" http://www.melbay.com/Products/21288...zz-violin.aspx

[Normis]

Really helpful - thanks guys.

[nickster60]

As said Dix Bruce is a good place to start.

[DavidKOS]

I say the following as a working Gypsy Jazz guitarist that also plays mandolin, thus my advice for mandolinists takes a different perspective.

Here's a good fakebook for Gypsy jazz:

from this thread:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ebook-download

link:

http://www.gypsyguitar.de/downloads/...jango_2008.pdf

From my most recent gig with Gypsy Swing Club:



Frankly I'd suggest not paying too much attention to the mandolinists playing Gypsy jazz and listen to guitar and violin players, besides they are the real original GJ instruments and determine the style.

Sure you need to play some "pompe" rhythm behind other players, but the real meat is in the melodic playing, and the guitar and violin players are the best source for learning.

Most mandolin I've heard in GJ, including Grisman, sounds a tad like it has a Bluegrass accent rather than a jazz accent - thus my suggestions to dig up guys like Angelo DeBarre as a model rather than Grisman.

Seriously, this is my biggest complaint about the folks that come to Gypsy Jazz from a non-jazz background, that they often sound like they are playing with an accent, and as great as BG music is, it is NOT the right flavor for jazz styles including GJ.

Not to contradict Jim Gallaher , but as for

"which features David Grisman. You'll find several standards of the GJ repertoire, but more importantly you'll hear a different feel from the mandolin than you'll generally get from the GJ guitar player. "

Personally I'd rather get the feel of a Jimmy Rosenburg - in other words as a GJ mandolinist you would want to get the feel of the guitar players that are well versed in the style rather than second-hand from mandolin players. The GJ violinists are also a great choice to model style after - and you can play their licks directly on mandolin.

http://www.amazon.com/Stephane-Grapp.../dp/1423486471

Best advice - listen to the original Django/Grappelli recordings, you'll get the most authentic feel from them.

[DavidKOS]

Shucks, I didn't mean to kill this thread.

[jmagill]

Shucks, I didn't mean to kill this thread.

Well, I'll keep it alive to say thanks for the link to the Django Fakebook – it looks great and I look forward to digging into it.

[montana]

John McGann has a course on Gj mandolin.

[DavidKOS]

John McGann has a course on Gj mandolin.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/django1.html

Like this?

Mostly good advice, particularly about the picking, although this is not correct:

"Gypsy guitarists use very thick rounded-ended picks, traditionally from around 3.5 to 5mm in thickness."

Many use picks with a pointed tip - but they all are thick!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8F...Jq5v21nvaAZfFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0VEx8f1n5g

Both guitar lessons above help give the real feel of GJ.

Look on Youtube - lots of guitar teaching materials easily relatable to mandolin.

[delsbrother]

Robin Nolan's great; took a workshop with him years ago.

[crisscross]

You can buy John Mc Gann lessons and transcriptions from Djangobooks. I once ordered a solo to "Limehouse Blues".
Interesting stuff, though a bit difficult for me, rhythmically challenging. http://www.djangobooks.com/Category/mando_lessons

To listen to, I recommend Jason Annick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PgHe4geDpw

[DavidKOS]

To listen to, I recommend Jason Annick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PgHe4geDpw

I never heard of him before - he plays well with a good swinging feel.

[SincereCorgi]

I find that gypsy jazz is really tricky on mandolin. My trio does a lot of it, so you'd think I'd feel better about it, but the more I play the more hang-ups I have about mandolin in that setting. You can't really get the Django guitar sounds because you can't do those big string bends and chains of hammer-ons, and you can't do Grappelli stuff because the mandolin and violin, despite tunings, have very different effects. It's also really hard to get a good rhythm 'thump' out of a mandolin. The best advice I can come up with is that you have to accept the limitations of the mandolin and focus instead of trying to get the phrasing right.

[lenf12]

Here's a guy with a pretty swingin' 5 string electric mandolin version of "I'll See You In My Dreams".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U16Ndy_X2e0

Enjoy,
Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[DavidKOS]

I find that gypsy jazz is really tricky on mandolin. My trio does a lot of it, so you'd think I'd feel better about it, but the more I play the more hang-ups I have about mandolin in that setting. You can't really get the Django guitar sounds because you can't do those big string bends and chains of hammer-ons, and you can't do Grappelli stuff because the mandolin and violin, despite tunings, have very different effects. It's also really hard to get a good rhythm 'thump' out of a mandolin. The best advice I can come up with is that you have to accept the limitations of the mandolin and focus instead of trying to get the phrasing right.

I think you nailed a lot of my issues - as both a guitar and mandolin player that is familiar with GJ style, I rarely play it on mandolin, much preferring guitar for stylistic reasons perhaps as much or more than technical ones.

What I think a mandolinists has to focus on is the swing, the arpeggio-style soloing style, and try to chart it's own voice that is true to the GJ style.

"The best advice I can come up with is that you have to accept the limitations of the mandolin and focus instead of trying to get the phrasing right."

Perhaps the idea would be to get the best phrasing possible on mandolin, based on the guitar and violin style.

[David Lewis]

Re: Picks, Django apparently used a button, so that might be where the idea that GJ pickers like round picks come from.

RE: GJ on a mandolin - I've done a bit of it, sitting in with a band of GJ in Sydney a couple of times. Because I wasn't immersed in the music, I was able to play it relatively ok because I wasn't hung up on getting it to sound like Django or Stephane. I just played the phrases as I thought they should go, and then just did a standard (for GJ) rhythm on the mandolin - no chopping, and sticking fairly closely to the chords as written (no substitutions, or few - a couple of 6 and 7 every now and then).

I think if we start being too 'authentic' we lose the progress the music can make. I wouldn't bring a Steve Vai JEM 777 and play like Steve Vai, for example, or I wouldn't play in a rockabilly style - but I think you can push the edge somewhat and see what happens.

That'll be 2c please.

[Mandobart]

I know there are quite a few members here in the NW. Even for those coming a little distance, I recommend Djangofest NW. This is THE premier GJ festival in the western US. I attended workshops there with Robin Nolan and Jason Anick. Got to see some of the world's best musicians, and this year will be no exception. Plus djamming late into the night on beautiful Whidbey Island!

http://djangofest.com/home/djangofest-northwest-2015/

[Scott Tichenor]

I never heard of him before - he plays well with a good swinging feel.

Cafe's Jason Anick interview from 2012.

[SincereCorgi]

"The best advice I can come up with is that you have to accept the limitations of the mandolin and focus instead of trying to get the phrasing right."

Perhaps the idea would be to get the best phrasing possible on mandolin, based on the guitar and violin style.

I meant to write 'to focus instead ON trying to get the phrasing right' but it's too late to edit my post, so maybe I should just own it: mandolin's suck, y'all.

[David Lewis]

And what was django's first instrument?

[DavidKOS]

Re: Picks, Django apparently used a button, so that might be where the idea that GJ pickers like round picks come from.
......
I think if we start being too 'authentic' we lose the progress the music can make..

Perhaps, but if we loose authenticity then the music is no longer what it is supposed to be; progress needs to be built on the tradition.

As for the "button" Django used one if needed - as he did a tooth from a large comb, etc. Apparently he played with almost anything.

Typical picks:

And what was django's first instrument?

Guitar banjo.



and another link for info

http://www.djangolizer.ch/index.html

[SincereCorgi]

Interesting description of Django's gear at a postwar recording session:

"I then examined his battered guitar. Django told me had had it 8 years. It certainly showed signs of wear and little of its original polish remained. The strings were extremely light gauge and when I played a few chords I was amazed at the lowness of the action. The plectrum Django uses is the usual pear-shaped pick, of medium size, extremely thick and with a heavy bevel. The case in which Reinhardt carries his guitar is sadly knocked about. The original handle is missing and is replaced by a piece of wire. What covering the case formerly possessed has long disappeared. Django shrugged expressively when he saw me looking at the case. “Cest la guerre,” he said. Incidentally, he had not brought any spare strings with him and when 1 snapped during the “run through,” Jack Llewellyn came to the rescue."

https://gypsyjazzuk.wordpress.com/gy...-1934-48/32-2/

[David Lewis]

Perhaps, but if we loose authenticity then the music is no longer what it is supposed to be; progress needs to be built on the tradition. As for the "button" Django used one if needed - as he did a tooth from a large comb, etc. Apparently he played with almost anything. Typical picks: Guitar banjo. and another link for info http://www.djangolizer.ch/index.html

I agree. A mandolin was a feasible addition. An electric bass, no. A piano? Maybe. A Hammond organ? No. Et cetera. We agree here, I think.

Thanks for that information on picks.