Sound advice appreciated about tenor, Chinese or decent "Vintage"

[michaeloceanmoon]

Hi all, thank you in advance!

I am looking for my second tenor (currently play a Regal from the 20's), and although I'm still raising the funds, I was hoping for some advice. I have my dream list of instruments, (mostly Martins), yet am inquiring about instruments that will likely fall below $600. From my research it seems as though the Blueridge BR40t is a top contender among the Goldtone and Ibanez Artwood models. (Maybe there are differing opinions and preferences,.. I'm open to them ).

However, I see a lot of Harmony H1201's, Regal/Harmony merger tenors, Cromwells and Harmony archtops, and Kays or Maybells that are on ebay or reverb and I always wonder,... "how do these vintage instruments stack up against the very available imports from China?"

I know all of these vintage instruments can't be generalized as to quality due to age and that they are different instruments with different attributes,.. But for instance, the Harmony's seem very similar to the imports: spruce tops, laminate back and sides, 0 sized bodies, probably priced without a case . In fact these vintage second tier instruments were manufactured as affordable options to the Martins and Gibsons back in the day, which is what the Chinese imports are presently manufactured to do.

I can clearly understand the advantages of a modern truss rod and a warranty with a new instrument, yet can anyone speak to the resale value on a Chinese import versus that of a good condition Harmony, Regal, Cromwell etc.. which are growing in value?

And most importantly, until I land my Martins, can anyone speak to the sound quality with some of these good condition second tier vintage American instruments and how they compare with the modern counterparts from China?

Thank you all for your experience and willingness to share!
Michael Aiello
artemisiamichaelart.blogspot.com

PS: I am also interested in the conversation surrounding the geopolitical, environmental and socioeconomic implications of buying low cost goods from China. It seems as though the quality is quite amazing for the price, so that isn't the main issue for me. However, I have an uneasy 'cloud of unknowing' about the affects both good and bad of this kind of purchase? How are people being treated in the factories, are the factories environmentally responsible, how can these good instruments be made and imported so inexpensively!!?. Just the tip of the iceberg of questions. I also struggle with the irony that I buy my milk and eggs locally but can only really afford to buy an instrument from China!! (or take another ebay chance on an American instrument made 50 years ago). Thanks all!

[jazzjune18]

I have the base model blue ridge tenor. In addition I own a flat top Gibson T00(guessing from the 60s) and a harmony stellla from the 70's. I was surprised to find that the blue ridge sounds the best, and is the easiest to play.

- - - Updated - - -

It was a big let down because I really like the look of the old Gibson.

[MikeEdgerton]

That doesn't surprise me. I used to buy and play the Harmony branded and Harmony/Stella's in the 60's. They were pretty rough actually. I'm shocked by all of the "mojo" they seem to have picked up over the years. Back then they were just cheap not very good guitars. The Gibson could probably be made to play better but some (not all) of them from the 60's and early 70's weren't great sounding to me anyway. I've yet to find any of the Blue Ridge models I didn't like.

[Explorer]

I have never had a regret with Eastman and Blueridge.

There was much weeping and wailing about possible factory conditions when Eastman came on the scene, with a lot of nonsense from those who were arguing against them just because of their national origins. There were also posts from an insider ahowing what things were really like, and that led to my having bought several instruments from them.

[michaeloceanmoon]

Thanks for the quick responses! This is just the kind of stuff I was hoping to hear in regards to experience with sound quality and playability. I would still like opinions on resale value on imports like the BR or an Eastman (i haven't considered those, do they make tenors?). I'm just imagining needing to finance upgrades in the future.

In terms of PRAISE for imports,....I actually have a Pono Tenor Ukulele which is solid Mahogany, is super affordable and an excellent instrument which was made in the Philippines. I would purchase their steel string 23" scale solid Mahohany tenor in a flash if they made them!! Pono came out with videos showing their factory and enthusiastic craftspeople, which made me feel excellent about my tenor ukulele. Based on their ukuleles, if Pono ever came out with a 23" scale steel string tenor it would probably also be solid wood and of outstanding craftsmanship at a fantastic price. But alas, that doesn't currently exist.

Again thank you all for your experience and willingness to share!
Michael artemisiamichaelart.blogspot.com

[fox]

Blueridge have just got it right, they seem to be bullet proof in durability & sound - everybody loves them!
Well I am sure lots of folk don't love them but for the price ( not cheap in the UK, around £500) they are just fantastic!
However I know where you are coming from, maybe a BR is not the most desirable guitar to own!
I have owned a few vintage tenors & I have enjoyed owning them but they have been cheap instruments & not so much fun to play.
I am always on the lookout for a nice vintage Martin but again in the UK they are very expensive.
I own a archtop Harmony made from solid wood but the wood is Birch & a birch top guitar just doesn't sound great!
All the same the Harmony looks incredible, it gets all the attention from visitors & I have managed to get it sounding OK.

[michaeloceanmoon]

That looks like the Harmony 1215t, am I right? Good to know that they don't sound too good,.. but you sure made her sweet to look at! Did they make a spruce topped model?

thanks! Michael

[MikeEdgerton]

Did they make a spruce topped model?

I believe they made one in the late 60's-70's. I never saw one then but I've seen them since.

[fox]

Here is a link, there is a vid link in that thread somewhere too.... http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...y-guitar/page2

[Explorer]

...I always wonder,... "how do these vintage instruments stack up against the very available imports from China?"

...can anyone speak to the resale value on a Chinese import versus that of a good condition Harmony, Regal, Cromwell etc.. which are growing in value?

I would still like opinions on resale value on imports like the BR or an Eastman (i haven't considered those, do they make tenors?). I'm just imagining needing to finance upgrades in the future.

The least expensive price I normally find on the Blueridge BR40T is $400 new, and I don't think I have seen *any* used ones.

With that said... if you could buy one new with warranty for $400, how much would *you* pay for a used one?

Usually an instrument (and other purchases) drop in value by 50% immediately upon purchase. That's just the way it goes, although if something is rare or in limited supply, or even discontinued, then it will retain more resale value. That's how supply and demand work.

If you're talking about investment value of brands like Gibson or Martin, I'd imagine they'd hold their value. There's no more of the old ones being made, *and* they are known to sound good.

If you're talking about the monetary value of brands which derive their growing prices from factors like "hipster cred," instead of build quality and sound... I can't advise you on how much demand there is for tenor guitars from Harmony, Regal and so on. I didn't see any such instruments going for much on eBay upon a quick search, which makes me think you're probably overestimating any return on investment from such an instrument.

I'm no expert on the value of these instruments, granted,and am just basing my reasoning, and my question to you, on what prices I see.

[MikeEdgerton]

By the way, I grew up in Portland. In the early 60's there were Harmony/Stella tenors being sold new in every pawn shop downtown. Before gentrification there were a dozen or more. That was at the end of the great folk music scare and lots of people bought tenor guitars and never played them. Even Meier & Frank had a wall of guitars for sale downtown. If you find any that were converted to 8 stringed instruments I probably did it.

[Chip Stewart]

I always wanted a Martin O-18T but could never afford one. The Martin O-18T has a spruce top and mahogany back and sides. I was very excited when I saw Blueridge was putting out a Martin O-18T "clone" (BR-40T). I was even more excited when I saw Blueridge was putting out a Martin O-18T "clone" with rosewood back and sides. I always liked the sound of rosewood better than mahogany. I could finally get my O-18T and with rosewood back and sides to boot!

This past December I purchased a Blueridge BR-60T on sale for $375. I am amazed at the sound. It sounds better (to me) than a Martin O-18T. I attribute this to the rosewood back and sides. The Blueridge BR-60T is now selling for $475. This increase in price must mean that the BR-60T is selling well. A price of $375 for this guitar was a steal. At $475, its a decent price but I wouldn't get excited about it.

If you're looking for a Martin "clone", the Blueridge is the tenor of choice. You won't be disappointed by the sound, but their popularity has driven the price up a bit. Good luck with your decision.

[Charles E.]

In your price range and the instruments you are asking about, resale value is a non issue.

Most Harmony, Kay's etc,etc, archtops are laminated and sound thin and hollow, most will need neck resets.

There are some solid wood larger bodied second tier tenors that are worth considering but again given the build quality they usually need braces glued back and neck resets.

I would go with the Blueridge tenor guitars or other affordable tenors from Ibaneze or Kala.

[michaeloceanmoon]

I'll be looking for a spruce top, unless I find my solid Mahogany Martin! Yet aside from "hipster cred", I've seen some Harmonys and Regal H1201s with spruce tops and wondered how those sound compared to the new Imports. I'm getting the impression, even though it's still a small poll here on this thread, that these don't really stack up too well with the Blueridges for instance. Is a spruce topped Harmony not even a close match for a Blueridge, GoldTone or Ibanez? Are there any vintage tenors of quality that are worth keeping an eye out for aside from Martins that I haven't mentioned? How about the Cromwells? Also, I just figured a vintage instrument has already depreciated so a resale is even Steven with an old timer.

Ok staying tuned for more group wisdom! �� Michael
PS: I liked the Kala, but my Regal is already 21" scale length, so I want a 23" next ax.

[Jess L.]

I am also interested in the conversation surrounding the geopolitical, environmental and socioeconomic implications of buying low cost goods from China.

Hi, and welcome, ok so I'm relatively new here too but they don't want us talking about political stuff. (Don't ask how I know this.) Ok it kinda makes sense now, even writing stuff that you've observed in your own life even without any 'political' context in order to answer a direct question, has the potential for causing unrest and arguments etc. Now that I understand this concept, I'm willing to go along with it and try to stay out of trouble (ain't easy) at least for purposes of this website. I have chosen to not regard it as censorship, but rather that they're trying to run an orderly website that doesn't offend anyone, so that people can learn about mandolin stuff without getting distracted by other considerations. Near as I can figure out, the people who run this site want us to all get along with each other and sort of stay focused on the music itself. Fair enough. I hope this doesn't sound bossy or nagging (that's not my intent), but I just don't want you getting into trouble. And yes, in school I was always straight-A but I also spent *lots* of time in the principle's office getting paddlings (eons ago when that was still allowed in schools) because I had a bad habit of disagreeing with the teachers (sometimes I was right, sometimes not), so you can learn from my example in that not everything is worth trying to sort out in a particular venue. The world has many problems, but I guess what we're supposed to do here is to get away from all the problem stuff, and just relax and play/learn music. I know it's hard to do sometimes.

Ok so enough about rules 'n' stuff, let's get back to music. I too am trying to figure out which new tenor guitar to eventually buy. In the 1970s I played an old National resonator tenor guitar, worked really good for Celtic (didn't get drowned out by the tenor banjos and concertinas), and when played with a light touch (as I almost always do anyway) it had a mellow tone that blended well with the other instruments. Out of my price range nowadays though.

As to new tenors though, I have no clue, the only one that's stood out in my limited research so far is this Forster Session King but their website doesn't show prices so I have no idea what it costs, probably a lot?

It's probably beyond my retiree's budget, but it sure sounds sweet, and I like the way it looks too.

But I'll likely end up getting one of the Blueridge tenors that lots of other people here have recommended.

[bruce.b]

That Forster sounds great. It's going to cost in the ballpark of what other good builders charge. If you're willing to pay, there are a ton of builders that will build you a great tenor guitar. Collings makes a beautiful looking and sounding traditional tenor.

[michaeloceanmoon]

Talk about dream guitars, Nigel Forster's work seems phenomenal! The Session Kings are in the £2200 price range, and I imagine they are worth it.

Yes, certain conversations make people uneasy and that's not my intention. There are good people and instrument builders all around this world. Big businesses and corporations have been known to get messy, yet as I initially stated it's my own unknowing about the chain of connectedness and it's global impacts which is most difficult for me to feel at peace with. I don't know how to illuminate my ignorance? Maybe someone more brilliant than I will do a documentary on these dynamics as they pertain to instrument building.

May the love of music and beauty prevail as the main motivations. May our open hearts and courageous spirits transmute the energy of whatever instruments we find ourselves playing towards the highest good. May the muse visit us wherever we dwell on Earth.

Ok, staying tuned, appreciatively,
Michael

[MikeEdgerton]

...Now that I understand this concept, I'm willing to go along with it and try to stay out of trouble (ain't easy) at least for purposes of this website. I have chosen to not regard it as censorship, but rather that they're trying to run an orderly website that doesn't offend anyone, so that people can learn about mandolin stuff without getting distracted by other considerations. Near as I can figure out, the people who run this site want us to all get along with each other...

We are indeed a moderated website with posting guidelines developed by the site owner to try and keep things civil. It works very well actually. We have more unique visitors on a daily basis than most of the other mandolin sites have monthly or even yearly. It's hard to argue with success.

[Charles E.]

This Regal-Harmony tenor is one of the few second tier instruments I would consider.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1953...item33a8320281

Solid wood, ladder braced, nice bridge placement, and a larger body. And it has had the neck reset. Of course the price reflects that.

Ten years ago you could buy these all day long for around two hundred bucks.

[MikeEdgerton]

It looks like it might have been refinished as well. It does look good though.

[MikeEdgerton]

By the way, I'm now lusting after a Forster Session King Guitar. Incredible sound.

[michaeloceanmoon]

Charley,

I saw that Regal/Harmony tenor and have been considering it (despite the funny smiley face bridge!). Yet this thread is assuring me that a Blueridge may be a better instrument for less money. Thank you for looking out for me; I am definitely open to any instruments that are well made, sound good and interesting. (until we all get Forsters!)

Michael

[SincereCorgi]

I'll be looking for a spruce top, unless I find my solid Mahogany Martin!

I have a all-mahogany Martin tenor and used to gig with it. It sounds nice but after a while I realized that it's just too soft to hold its own in group situations. I find that tenors in general are pretty quiet, and that you need an exceptional tenor to match the volume and tone of even an adequate six-string.

There are a lot of small builders right now who would probably build you a great, loud tenor for about $1200 (I can recommend one guy in particular). Among the modern factory tenors, I would go with the Blueridge.

[michaeloceanmoon]

I am always welcome for great builder recommendations for the future when my fortunes take an upturn. I briefly played a really sweet and full bodied Hamilton tenor, but I can't locate him to pitch a payment plan.

M

[michaeloceanmoon]

Just an update, though I'm never quite sure when folks stop replying.

Thanks to the informative replies to this thread and other helpful responses with related threads, I had a very nice turn of events. I began to feel very enthusiastic about the Blueridge tenors and contacted Saga to find a local dealer so that I could decide on a model. This prepared the way for Saga alerting me that a second hand Blueridge had just shown up at my local acoustic store. A practically mint BR-40t from I think 2007 with a stellar hard shell case was on the hooks for just a couple of hours being offered at a literal steal. I've put a downpayment on it and am only delaying my take home until next month when I'll let my daughter make the last payment on it for my birthday. I've already restrung it to low G .013,.022,.032 and .042.. I think it could even go a bit fatter on the guages, yet she sounds great!

I really owe the turn of events to the MC community. I wish my b-day was sooner but marking the calendar with the event will be a nice memory for both me and my daughter. I'll post my review at the end of October. Hopefully, I'll be more adept at fifths then.

PS: Saga's rep. Said they think the factory conditions are 'not' bad and that someone with Saga in the US has a brother working in the China factory. I don't know details, but the folks in the US were very friendly and helpful with me. I have no idea how they knew when my olderBR-40t showed up locally. But they turned me on to a ridiculously good opportunity.

Thanks all for playing a significant part in my acquiring of a sweet new Blueridge tenor!

Michael