Am I missing the "point" about the Dawg-type picks?

[DavidKOS]

Hi fellow mandolinists.

As some of you may know, I am always suggesting that folks try picks in the more traditional Neapolitan style for use on mandolin - you know, picks with a pointed tip!
Not too thin but also not too thick either, stiff but with some flexibility.

From "Exploring Classical Mandolin" by one of our own forum members, August Watters:

"the classical world is mostly unified on the preference for a pointed pick....Rounded-off points may seem warmer at first, but they do so by removing brilliance" page 8

On every plectrum instrument I play I have always used pointed picks, often decidedly sharp.

As a matter of fact, my technical abilities drop when I use a round pick rather than a pointed one, my speed is down, clarity is down, and certainly is harder to do a smooth fast tremolo.

So what am I missing?

Why do so many people use a Dawg, Golden Gate, or similar large stiff round pick for mandolin? What I teasingly call a poker chip?

Is it the David Grisman influence? Or did everyone decide to use round picks on their own?





I'm sincerely not trolling - I just have never gotten it, and would like to understand why these picks are the standard nowadays.

Thanks for humoring me.

[journeybear]

I don't get it, either. I have almost always used guitar picks - the exceptions being triangular picks like Ckayton and a Wegen someone gave me - and when the point gets worn down to the point where it looks like a Dawg pick, it's no longer useful to me. Starting out with a pick shaped like that seems pointless.

I dispute your claim that this is the standard. I doubt these are used anywhere near as often as guitar-style picks. Those are just too commonly available, in all manner of thickness and material. And bigger picks are easier to hold onto.

[Londy]

I think it a depends on what sound your going for. I own many different picks and switch depending on the tune, my role in the song and again the sound I'm looking for. ...my 2 cents.

[journeybear]

The thing is, if I ever need to get the sound produced by a more rounded tip - I'm not sure exactly what that would be - I can just rotate my guitar pick and use one of the shoulders for that.

[AlanN]

Don't tell this guy.

[mandobassman]

I have never liked picks with a sharp point. I like a more rounded point like the 346 shape. However, I also don't know how anyone gets decent tone or any volume from the Dawg picks. I know someone who actually uses a pick that is completely round. I tried it once and couldn't any sound at all.
The people who use them seem to make it work and swear by them, but it's not for me.

[Petrus]

I didn't like 'em at first but now I do. They are quiet though ... I prefer them for late-night practice when I don't want to make a lot of noise, so I'm actually agreeing with the critics, but what they see as a downside I see as a positive.

I started off with one Dawg that I got for free in the case when I bought a used mando a while back. Took me a while to get used to it. When I lost it recently, I actually went and ordered a dozen Dawgs off the internet because I missed it.

When I do want volume, though, I definitely go for a pointier and thinner pick.

[red7flag]

Personally, I like a guitar shaped Andrea Pro-Plec (I am also cheep). I get a great rich sound, but can get verbrato or dig in when necessary. My Blue Chip (I am afraid to play as I am afraid to lose) is guitar shaped. The only Dawg shaped pick I enjoy was a gift and is made from a substance that is not legal, but I think I would rather have it shaved down to a guitar pick shape.

[Tobin]

I don't get it either. I have a Golden Gate pick, several Dawg picks (including one dropped by Mr. Grisman himself at a concert), and various other roundy-style picks. Can't make none of 'em sound worth a darn on any of my mandolins. But I admit that it may just be that my personal preference is for a loud, clear note with lots of overtones. If I preferred a quiet, warm tone, these would be perfect.

It also comes down to picking style. I've developed the angled-pick attack that seems to go well with speed-beveled picks. Using a rounded pick with no directional bevel seems to require more of a flat attack for clarity.

[Carl Robin]

It's great that people have choices, and that they are happy with different picks. With a rounded pick, I would be "missing the point" too. There is too sharp, and too rounded. The Goldilocks shape, that's just right, is an ordinary guitar pick--in my opinion. The flexible ones are out of the question, of course. I'm attracted to the colors and appearance of certain picks, but that makes no difference when using them.

[MikeEdgerton]

I've used a variety of picks and I always go back to the rounded type, mostly because I can actually get better tremolo with the rounded pick than I can with a pointed pick. I general switch picks during sets depending on the song I'm doing. I always use a heavy gauge pick as I just like the sound better.

I don't use light thin flexible picks when I play guitar, I use a heavy pointed pick. Any pick I can flex I give away to friends that like them.

[BradKlein]

I think that the experience of being baffled by very rounded (or very pointy!) picks is super-common among those of us 'raised' on Fender medium 'standard' guitar-style picks. The same is true re: thickness.

I started playing on a mandola that came from an orchestral player and assumed that the small, pointy, thin teardrop pick in the case was just 'what mandolin players used'. My first lesson was with Andy Statman who introduced me to heavy picks (tri-corner, i think) and the power of his attack just blew my mind and introduced me to what a Gibson A model could do in the right hands. But, boy it felt strange.

As to 'getting' the virtues of the Dawg pick, all you have to do is listen to the Dawg - one of the great undisputed tone-monsters of the last 50 years. I sure don't know how to use them, but I haven't spent the time to really try and make that style work.

[Jesse Harmon]

Long time Golden Gate user. Pointy picks seem a more staccato tone to me, rounded have a more smooth and legato attack. Thought I could inter change with Dawg but for some reason couldn't. One of those questions that have to be resolved like a koan I think. Intuitively.

[journeybear]

Yes, "the small, pointy, thin teardrop pick!" That's what they had back when I was starting out in the late 60s. I thought it was weird and unwieldy. Somewhere along the way I thought about using a guitar pick. The guy at the store said no, that was for guitar, this is for mandolin, it says so right here - something like that. Maybe he was relating what he had heard, maybe he was trying to move these picks that had been sitting there forever. I dunno. I didn't see why I couldn't use a guitar pick. The business end wasn't that different - it would make the strings move just fine - but the larger size was easier to grip, and the thickness gave me more control. Looking back it just made so much sense, real common sense, but at the time it was thinking outside of the box that was so radical, I had to convince myself it would be all right. Oh, the price we pay for ignorance!

[JeffD]

As to 'getting' the virtues of the Dawg pick, all you have to do is listen to the Dawg - one of the great undisputed tone-monsters of the last 50 years. I sure don't know how to use them, but I haven't spent the time to really try and make that style work.

I think that really is an answer. Not that most of us can, or should, emulate the superstars, but in this case it shows what the pick can do, and why someone would use it.

[MikeEdgerton]

To me picks are like capos. They're a tool. Use it if you get what you want out of the mandolin. There's no right and no wrong no matter what anyone says. If it works for you, go for it. If you don't get round picks don't use them.

A related thread can be found here.

[multidon]

I couldn't do tremolo worth a darn until I tried a Golden Gate pick. That became my go to for quite a while until I tried the Primetone 1.3. About the same shape but a higher quality material. Pointy picks just didn't do it for me. I use a heavy guitar pick at times but I have to hold it with the pointy end to the side and play one of the two rounder ends.

As for volume, I find I can get plenty. For me it seems to all be in the striking angle.

I do a lot of tremolo so it's rounded picks for me!

[JeffD]

I find also that the pick is the part of the playing experience that I most get used to. If I am borrowing someone's mandolin and pick, its the pick I notice most as being different.

And for me "different" always feels like "inferior" at first. Mostly because I am lazy and adapting takes effort and so, by definition, the familiar takes less effort.

All that said, I have tried a lot of picks and the rounded all-shoulders-no-point picks are not my preference. I can't seem to get Dave's tone out of them. I do notice that tremolo takes less effort, but to my ears my tremolo with a rounded pick sounds breathy.

[JeffD]

I also think about the part of the tone quality called brilliance. It is my impression (often embarrassingly found to be wrong one or two emails later) that until recently, brilliance hasn't been talked about much. Quite the opposite, in my experience here, the deep tones and woof and warmth have been prized and lauded and compared and evaluated all the time. Even by me. But the kind of scintillating tone you can get up on the e string or up in third position, on a good mandolin, that sparkly clarity stuff - not as much.

My point is that perhaps that trend goes hand in hand with pick preference.

[DavidKOS]

Can't make none of 'em sound worth a darn on any of my mandolins. But I admit that it may just be that my personal preference is for a loud, clear note with lots of overtones.

As to 'getting' the virtues of the Dawg pick, all you have to do is listen to the Dawg - one of the great undisputed tone-monsters of the last 50 years. I sure don't know how to use them, but I haven't spent the time to really try and make that style work.

I know Grisman is one of the top mandolinists....but I'm not overly enamored of his tone, round picks on heavy strings on an archtop mandolin.

Certainly he can play wonderfully, but he's less of an influence to me than he is to many other mandolinists.

I couldn't do tremolo worth a darn until I tried a Golden Gate pick. ...
I do a lot of tremolo so it's rounded picks for me!

That's interesting because I can't get my usual tremolo going with a rounded tip pick.

I wish to thank everyone so far for your responses.

[DavidKOS]

A related thread can be found here.

I remember that thread...I posted similar comments about pointed picks.

[Caleb]

To me, THE toughest thing about the mandolin is getting a good tone from the pick. Back before I started I just loved "the sound of a mandolin." But now that I play, that simple sound has became so much more complicated. I'm to the point now where I find a lot of mandolin playing distracting because of the clanging sounds of the pick attack and technique (my own included). Getting good tone from my pick is something I work on constantly, and harder at than anything else. I guess it'll be a lifelong deal.

I was always amazed at Butch Baldasarri's smooth and beautiful tremolo (and tone in general), and he used the pointy end of a regular guitar pick, but I can't make anything work with the pointy end. My playing also sounds like mud with a Golden Gate or DAWG pick. Mostly these days I'm using the rounded shoulders of a heavy guitar pick, which is what I started out on almost ten years ago.

[journeybear]

Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I am generally of the opinion that it ain't what you do, it's the way how you do it. Of course, it also is best to have the right tool for the job. Now, inasmuch as you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, you have to make hay while the sun shines.

A few months ago my gig bag got a little wet, so I took the time to give it a good cleaning and wipe down, including clearing out the doodad pocket. I noticed I had one of those fake doubloons from a Mardi Gras or Fantasy Fest parade in there, I kept in in there, just in case or for good luck. Then last Saturday I showed up at the radio show loaded for bear and Clementine - two mike stands and mikes, my Baggs venue DI, all sorts of cords and gizmos and knick-knacks and bells and whistles tossed in my gig bag (this is all on my bike, BTW) - but somehow had not brought a single pick! I knew Clementine wouldn't have one when she arrived, as she plays ukulele with her fingers. But I remembered that doubloon, which I decided would be my double secret probation pick and get me through this trying time. This is about as thick as my Dunlop 3mm "The Club," and being about two inches across, has an even shallower curvature than my Dawg pick - but it was there, which those weren't (and I wouldn't have used even if they were, since I also have a regular guitar pick ). I'm not recommending this by any means - it is not made from acoustically-oriented material - and indeed, it sounded so awful I used my fingernails for chords most of the time - but for picking leads, it worked all right. It was way better than nothing. With a nod to Dave's True Story's "Flexible Man," ("the measure of a man / Is in the way that he can adapt"), I was able to adapt, and that is really the point of this rambling racontage - use what you've got with what you know how, and you ought to do all right.

[Isaac Revard]

As more of a "beginner" player the dawg pick really helped me improve my tremolo. I eventually picked up a bc pick tad 60 at a jam and fell in love. I do like to pick up the dawg (I prefer the older ones, gen 1 I suppose) or a proplec from time to time depending on which neighbors cat I'm trying to kill. I began with a pointed guitar pick that some guy sold me at a guitar center, mike Marshall began to straighten me out on artist works however and suggested a proplec which evolved into a dawg and then the BC. Its been a fun adventure, finding a pick that I like. Its incredible the differences that bevel, pointedness and material create acoustically!

[darrylicshon]

At first i didn't like the Dawg picks , but the last few times i have used one they are working a lot better, it's not my go to pick but i can get a good anougth sound out of them