I have been playing wrong all my life

[M.Marmot]

watch Robin Bullock, especially around 4:28 , if you don't know Robin check him out. the man can play quite well. also Haley Dykes play as you do, check her music out.

'Interesting ... likewise Caleb Klauder (as per the Cafe interview)

You really grab on to that pick, don't you?

My main hold is between my first two fingers and my thumb. I kind of bend my thumb back like I'm hitchhiking. It's a three-finger hold and I'll switch between that and a two-finger hold with my thumb and the side of my first finger. It depends on what I'm playing, where I'll hold it. If I'm doing more of a big, wide-open chordal thing, I can hold it with two fingers, but if I'm doing a real fast little picky, notey thing, I'll go into three fingers. That's been my standard method since I started playing. I know a lot of players don't do that, but I really like it. It gives me a different tone. It allows me to get the tip of the pick right where I want it. There's a power thing behind it, because I'm holding the pick a little more firmly with three fingers. Since I'm using two of my fingers, there's a little pivot spot, rather than with just one finger against your thumb. I notice some players play with their pick angled through the string and I play with mine flat against the string. I want to have as much of the flat side of the pick as I can against the string, not the edge.'

[Bertram Henze]

- grip: A finger+thumb grip will do as long as you don't need to be loud and therefore apply stronger hacking forces at the strings. I developed a 3-finger+thumb grip in order to be heard in Irish sessions.

- anchoring: you need to anchor somewhere in a manner that #1 takes the weight of your forearm off your muscles and #2 does not hamper hand motion (failing to observe #1 here can lead to development of an essential tremor - you don't want that).

[Martin Jonas]

We don't have enough information to know the situation at your college. Is this a classical mandolin course, and if so, in what country? In Germany and Italy, for example, there are quite prescriptive approaches to classical mandolin playing being taught and if you're studying mandolin at a conservatoire in these countries, your tutors will probably insist that you adapt your right-hand technique in line with the established tradition that country. Note however that the Italian and German approaches are very different from each other, meaning that you would be in the same position as a fully-trained mandolinist moving from a music school in Germany to one in Italy or vice versa.

In contrast, if this is a music school in the US, I would expect there to be more acceptance of the range of mandolin techniques in popular or folk styles. While most high-level players use two-finger grips, there is a significant proportion of excellent players using various three-finger grips. Similar with posting/anchoring.

Unless you have been told in clear terms otherwise by the school or the tutors, my advice would be to use the technique you're comfortable with and that got you into this school in the first place for your initial meetings with your mandolin tutor -- they need to know your strengths and weaknesses in order to work with you to get you where you want to be. Then (and only then), if you and they consider that you should try out a different right-hand technique, you can work on that together.

Good luck!

Martin

[ald]

My penny's worth: I started using the three-finger grip when I was kind learning guitar because the plectrum kept flying out of my fingers. When I came to this forum about 10 years ago I tried, in response to various recommendations, to wean myself off the habit but try as I might my fingers seemed to have a mind of their own and the old three-finger style would creep back in. I perservered and fretted and worried. Then about four years back I read an interview with Pat Metheny, who said he picked up the three-finger grip because he had nobody to teach him any better when he was young, and he felt it was too late to change now. I thought to myself, if it hasn't hindered him any why should I worry myself about it so much.

Now, I know am not and will never be on the brink of entering a top-notch academy but I questioned my daughter's boyfriend about the subject a while back. He completed Amsterdam conservatory learning jazz guitar. Did some of the students have unusual pick grips? I asked, and did the teachers try to correct them? He replied that, yes, there were all kinds of eccentric grips but the teachers would not try to correct these unless they saw the students were actually creating unnecessary obstacles for themselves.

[xSinner13x]

I play mine like a person whose primary instrument is guitar,
If someone came up to me and tried to correct my "improper" technique, they would get an ear full(to put it mildly).

if you can play, and be proficient with the folks you jam with, who really cares?

[Mandomax]

Have faith. You can make the switch! I had the same crisis when I realized that my old pick grip (playing with the point of the pick, anchoring the heel of my palm on the bridge) killed tone and volume. I could play fast and with precision, but I hit a wall. After discussion with some great teachers and watching clips of players I respected (Lawson, McCoury, Thile, Compton), I went to a free-floating grip using the shoulder of the pick with a loosely-closed fist. I HATED IT at first- no precision, speed was terrible, and it felt clunky. But I stuck with it, and after a month, the difference was incredible. I practiced 2-3 hours a day with the new grip before it felt fluid. I did that with a family and a full-time job- if I was in music school, I think the switch would have been even faster- maybe even a week of constant woodshedding.
You got into the school based on your current skills. Give yourself some credit. Meet with your teacher, find out what he/she has to say, and then get to work! This is music, so even the hardest stuff is better than making a spreadsheet! (IMHO) PM if you want more details.
Best,
Max

[DavidKOS]

Have faith. You can make the switch! I had the same crisis when I realized that my old pick grip (playing with the point of the pick, anchoring the heel of my palm on the bridge) killed tone and volume. I could play fast and with precision, but I hit a wall. .....I went to a free-floating grip using the shoulder of the pick with a loosely-closed fist. I HATED IT at first- no precision, speed was terrible, and it felt clunky. But I stuck with it, and after a month, the difference was incredible. I practiced 2-3 hours a day with the new grip before it felt fluid.

Now try playing with the proper grip and a floating hand and use the point again and see how much more precise you can be now. I'm curious as to the result of that.

Pick grip and hand position are covered in almost all of the classical mandolin methods; I'd suggest downloading some of them and seeing the traditional way.

edit

http://www.mandolin.myzen.co.uk/righthnd.html

http://www.marilynnmair.com/articles...ick-technique/

Pick Technique for the Classical Mandolinist



article on right hand technique

[Mandomax]

I have, and the tone is not to my liking. I understand your perspective, and respect and appreciate your desire to pull a brilliant, sparkly tone of out a bowlback mando. I, on the other hand, play with a 4 piece bluegrass band, and need a powerful, punchy and percussive tone that pops out. On an F5, I just don't like the sound I get with a pointy pick. I believe that the more surface area of the pick that contacts the string, the more power you will get out of your mando- hence, my decision to use the shoulder of a Blue Chip TAD-80 2.0mm. I also play classical and choro, and just prefer the tone more with this approach. Again, not saying it is a better way, just a different way.
Best regards,
Max

[JeffD]

If you were good enough to get in to the school, then you must have evidenced the potential abilities they want - and I don't think your pick grip will negate that. It gives them something to teach you.

I don't think it will take all that long to acquire a different grip, or to determine that it is not an improvement. You are not a newbie to the mandolin.


Everything else I think about the rights and wrongs of things I wrote in a blog. It applies more to newbies, but it may be of interest.

[Mandomax]

David,
I studied with Marilynn at AMGuSS and respect and admire her technique. I have studied all volumes of Bickford. I am very familiar with "correct" classical technique. I just didn't cotton to the tone. For the majority of music I play, that type of technique is not the tool I want to use. It is a deliberate, informed decision.
Thanks,
Max

[cstviz]

Thanks again for the wonderful and varied responses, everyone.

Let me try to give you guys a specific example of my issues:
When I play incorrectly, I can alternate pick quickly and cleanly. When I play correctly, I have to pick one.
When I am alternate picking and go down a string on an up-pick (say from D to G), one of two things happens. I either accidentally hit the D string again on the up-pick, or the up-pick on the G is barely audible. I try practising this at a slow speed and trying to get faster, but once I reach a certain speed (the same speed every time) I end up making the same mistakes. Normally I'd be able to fix something like this pretty quickly in practice, but with this I just feel like that old line about insanity being something done over and over again expecting a different result...

[August Watters]

There are, of course, also different schools of thought in classical mandolin, regarding holding the pick and hand position. To the OP: I take issue with whatever teacher told you there's only one correct way to hold a pick. Your description of pick grip sounds like the standard "pencil grip" as seen in Munier, Calace, and other historical methods.

It's not that anything goes -- but it does help to get a sense of the trends. To paraphrase my late colleague John McGann: There's more than one correct way to play the mandolin, but there are even more wrong ways.

[cstviz]

There are, of course, also different schools of thought in classical mandolin, regarding holding the pick and hand position. To the OP: I take issue with whatever teacher told you there's only one correct way to hold a pick. Your description of pick grip sounds like the standard "pencil grip" as seen in Munier, Calace, and other historical methods.

It's not that anything goes -- but it does help to get a sense of the trends. To paraphrase my late colleague John McGann: There's more than one correct way to play the mandolin, but there are even more wrong ways.

Thanks for responding. I have really been trying to stop anchoring and using pencil grip in pure fear that Joe Walsh will see me playing and ask me to change (and I'd rather make that change, if I have to, before I embarrass myself in front of people I respect like you and him). And thanks for pointing that out about Calace. I love playing Calace and maybe this is why(?).

[bobby bill]

Two things:

First, I would simply echo others by saying that I made the transition ages ago, it was awkward at first, then it wasn't, and I think I'm a better player today for it.

Second, I sense that a lot of anxiety is related to a desire to get this all ironed out before you meet with your new teacher. In order to get the most from your teacher, you should remember that you are there to learn from him/her, rather than to impress. The first lesson I ever had, I apologized for about every fifth note until the teacher just about slapped me. My apologies arose out of my desire to impress the teacher, and I quickly learned I was there for another reason. Seeing a teacher is in some ways like seeing a doctor: one way or another, they are going to see you naked. And believe me, it's a bigger deal to you than it is to them.

[objectsession]

There are, of course, also different schools of thought in classical mandolin, regarding holding the pick and hand position. To the OP: I take issue with whatever teacher told you there's only one correct way to hold a pick. Your description of pick grip sounds like the standard "pencil grip" as seen in Munier, Calace, and other historical methods.

It's not that anything goes -- but it does help to get a sense of the trends. To paraphrase my late colleague John McGann: There's more than one correct way to play the mandolin, but there are even more wrong ways.

I was just came on here because I thought to suggest that the OP check out your book (Exploring Classical Mandolin) precisely because it conveys what you're saying here (in more depth).

So . . check out his book! In chapter 2 (and continuing in chapter 3), the book gives sort of a survey of different picking hand techniques ("right hand technique" for those right-handed players) with a bit of analysis and, importantly, references to many older method books.

[Lord of the Badgers]

So a while ago I watched a Chris Thile vid on Youtube where he described how to hold the pick (in his, not inconsiderably experienced view). I have been aping that since. My tone's a lot better for a start, and tune playing (I started as a chord player because I'm a writer by trade) was not coming to me as I'd like until then.
Then I watched Tim O'Brien playing on the weekend.
His hand looks very different in motion - maybe I'm wrong, but it did to me.
I'm guessing that the post above that asks if you're precise, have tone etc, has it.
If it works for you, it works for you, but it IS worth questioning your pick hold just in case it unlocks something else.

I still swap to my more guitar like pick style for chords though... so I use two grips!

[CES]

Take a deep breath, man, or lady. You've been accepted because you have talent and potential. Your anxiety and concerns indicate that you understand the honor in your accomplishments, and the fact that you're so concerned about this issue reflects how much you care, which, frankly, is pretty awesome in and of itself. But, you should learn to have enough respect for those, like August Watters, to understand that they have your best interests in mind and want you to succeed. They're not going to kick you out of Berklee because of your pick grip, but if it hinders you they'll work with you to eliminate it as a roadblock to improvement. Part of this process is about growing up and learning to take criticism as it's intended, and you'll come to understand what I mean by that statement. You'll look back on this in a few years with an embarrassed grin...for now, enjoy getting to learn from some of the best in the world at what they do!!

[David Lewis]

Sam bush has a fairly unorthodox technique. It seems to work ok. If he sticks at it he might even be able to join a band.

[JeffD]

Sam bush has a fairly unorthodox technique. It seems to work ok. .

For him anyway.


The thing is the OP is not a beginner, so while perhaps his technique might not be recommended, it is working.

[David Lewis]

For him anyway. The thing is the OP is not a beginner, so while perhaps his technique might not be recommended, it is working.

Agreed.

[A 4]

I won't provide any advice on pick grip or changing technique, but I will echo what CES said above.

I know you are focusing on what you are doing "wrong," and worried about what your instructors will think. I've never taught mandolin, but I've taught at the University level before, and I encourage you to try and think a little from the teacher's perspective. It is their job to make you better, and they take it seriously. Students often think that instructors are trying to catch them not knowing something, but they really, really want you to succeed, and will work with you to make that happen. And when the student is excited and motivated, it is a joy.

You will be best served, in my opinion, anyway, by meeting with your instructor and being open. Your job is not to impress them, even though it seems like it! Show him or her how you play normally. Let them know you are concerned that it may be non-standard technique, and talk it out. That gives them the information they need, and lets them do their job to chart a path forward for you, be that changing or keeping your current grip.

The impostor syndrome someone mentioned on the previous page is real, and important. But think about it: nobody got into the program because they had an awesome pick grip, did they? They got into the program because they have music ability. So did you.

[cstviz]

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Quick update: This is mainly for those who are talking about imposter syndrome and reassuring me that I am musically talented. Today I received the musical ranking that my college gives (it is from 1 to 8, with 1 being lowest and 8 being highest). I was ranked a 2, so I guess I really AM NOT talented. I have decided to head down to the registrar tomorrow and officially withdraw from the college. So that should be the conclusion to this post! Thanks for all the support you guys have given. This really is a wonderful community with diverse opinions!

[David Lewis]

Why would you do that? A 2 means room for improvement, and an opportunity to learn. All '8's were 1s and 2s once.

Don't overthink. Don't panic. Grab on and ride as hard as you can.

[Bertram Henze]

I was never happy with playing music until I stopped letting others decide on my capacity.
Your hands, your instrument, your heart and nobody else's.

[objectsession]

I really think this is a mistake . . I won't restate everything I said, but I strongly strongly suggest discussing your situation with someone in an advisory role at your school first. I mean, you're already physically there, and there should be no problem reaching out to a professor or an advisor or maybe even the department chair (or vice chair).