Gilchrist Model 5 - how long to get it to open up?

[Mark Seale]

Shaun, you didn't say that, but AFAYK, is there any evidence that Steve's mandos sound generally brighter these days, more balanced, possibly more loarish?

Not Shaun, but the answer is yes to more Loarish. I wouldn't say they are brighter, I would say they have more clarity and articulation. Steve is building for a mid-range punch that will cut across a group. He also believes that the mid-range has to be there as new and the bottom and the top get played in. After he finished the Carmel order list, he was free to build more to his spec which has been a pursuit to the sound of instruments like Grisman's '22 Loar, Crusher. The few newer Gils I've played, I would call tight out of the box, but they bloom with play. I put heavier A and E strings on mine and it was like adding a power booster. It still needs more picking, but that's the fun part.

[DataNick]

...I put heavier A and E strings on mine and it was like adding a power booster. It still needs more picking, but that's the fun part.

What guages are those Mark?

[Ivan Kelsall]

From pops1 - "I have a Brentrup that had not been played much when i got it. It took a long time for the G string to open up and resonate,...". My Lebeda was 7 years old when i got it 'used',& looking at it's pristine condition & 'no wear' frets,it hadn't been played much at all. It sounded pretty 'boxy' to me when i first played it,but i put new strings on it (J74's) & set it up with the slightly higher action that i prefer & played it a 'lot' for a few weeks.The transformation was little less than remarkable. The mandolin took on the beautiful woody tone that it has now, & the overall balance of tones across all the strings was as good as i'll ever need.
I have no experience at all with Gilchrist mandolins & probably never will have,but,maybe a bit of experimenting with string brands & pick types could work wonders for the OP's Gil. No single brand of string or type/thickness/shape of pick will work for all mandolins & a bit of experimenting could be in order - at least that's the path i'd travel,
Ivan

[Demetrius]

Ok so this entire thread is really interesting, there's almost no doubt in my mind that the instrument you have needs to be played into submission. I've given up instruments in the last because when I got them I was expecting this wide open, all the tone I wanted mandolin. I know, it's very hard to swallow when it's not being what you want when you forked over that much money, but when I played those instruments a year or two after the buyer had their way with it I was psychologically messed with. Now here I was playing an instrument I in a sec would've bought back that just two years
before I would complain I'd give away in a sec. My advice is never play an instrument you sold after the fact. It could lead to depression... I'm embedding a video clip of my brother and I having a Mando tasting meet. In this video the 5th mandolin is also a 2006 Gilchrist model 5 that had not been played since 2010 literally up until this very moment last spring. The 6th mandolin we tested was a 2000 Dudenbostel that had been played hard for 3 years then pretty much not touched since then till around 2014 but only for a couple months, only to be set back in the case again and not played again until a week before this Mando tasting. If you put headphones on you can sorta hear the sound struggling a little to make its way out both of these two instruments. In fact the Brentrup Stealth was in the same boat, it had been built a few years ago and had never seriously been played and it too felt very green.
The Dude is mine so I've played it almost constantly since this video and I can't really even describe the difference. The Brentrup is owned by my brother and it's the same situation with his. I can't believe the change with his mandolin in a short amount of time with consistent use. I don't own the Gilchrist so sadly this instrument still remains in its case unused and green sounding, but someday someone's gonna buy it and think what your thinking. Hopefully they will give it a year of constant play to really evaluate the sonic differences that can take place in that amount of time. I encourage you to give the fella some real love and I really feel it'll start responding in a way that's gonna have you surprised in time. To tell you the truth all the instruments in this Mando tasting were pretty green at this point. Other than the Collings Mt2, none of these mandos were new. Well anyhow enjoy the video and hopefully my input here has offered you some insight with my own buyers experience. God bless!

[Bob Clark]

No single brand of string or type/thickness/shape of pick will work for all mandolins & a bit of experimenting could be in order

I think Ivan is right on the money with this. I would be inclined to live with it for a bit, try different strings and different picks. It would also be a good idea to ask Mr. Gilchrist for suggestions.

This is also why I tend not to be interested in the "I went to store X, played all the mandolins and the inexpensive mandolin y was the best of the bunch" threads. Different strings and picks, not to mention different technique, can totally change the sound of a mandolin.

Good luck!

Bob

[Mark Seale]

What guages are those Mark?

J75 on A and E and 74 on D and G.

[alexzen]

Yes, it is the 2006 Model from Carter's. Since I live in New England I did not get a chance to play it before purchase it. It sounds like it needs the right set of strings and lots of playing. It is very sweet in the middle and highs. I did not try to compare it to my 70ies Monteleone F5 because that produces the most amazing sound. After playing it for 3 hours the other night I began to really appreciate what it does have, which is quite incredible, and am learning how to bring out its unique sound. It is a keeper.

[Russ Jordan]

Officespace---do you remember if the Collings MF5 was varnish or lacquer?

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Yes, Jason Bailey from Birmingham on the right. He is a good player and a friend of mine. Not really fair to compare anyone to Andy Leftwich. Outside of Thile, no one, or at least very few, have his fluidity and dexterity.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I played that 2006 Gil at Carters (Barry was referring to me in his earlier post) and I thought the tone exquisite. And the playability unmatched.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I was blown away when I found a youtube video of Andy playing Big Mon (I didn't embed since it isn't a Gilchrist).

If not a Gilchrist, what is Andy playing in the video?

[Nick Gellie]

Yes, it is the 2006 Model from Carter's. Since I live in New England I did not get a chance to play it before purchase it. It sounds like it needs the right set of strings and lots of playing. It is very sweet in the middle and highs. I did not try to compare it to my 70ies Monteleone F5 because that produces the most amazing sound. After playing it for 3 hours the other night I began to really appreciate what it does have, which is quite incredible, and am learning how to bring out its unique sound. It is a keeper.

Sounds like you are both warming to each other. We are all hoping that it will become a long-term relationship.

[Mandobar]

Joe Walsh remarked at a workshop that he bought his Gil and made a commitment to play it for three years before deciding whether or not to keep it.

[dang]

If not a Gilchrist, what is Andy playing in the video?

Not sure, I can't quite make it out... Maybe a Gilchrist?

[sgarrity]

Not Shaun, but the answer is yes to more Loarish. I wouldn't say they are brighter, I would say they have more clarity and articulation. Steve is building for a mid-range punch that will cut across a group. He also believes that the mid-range has to be there as new and the bottom and the top get played in. After he finished the Carmel order list, he was free to build more to his spec which has been a pursuit to the sound of instruments like Grisman's '22 Loar, Crusher. The few newer Gils I've played, I would call tight out of the box, but they bloom with play. I put heavier A and E strings on mine and it was like adding a power booster. It still needs more picking, but that's the fun part.

What Mark said. Steve's newer stuff leans toward the fundamental end of things with very few overtones. They are very balanced across the strings and they're projection monsters. To me they sound best when played with a heavy hand in an ensemble. He's basically building what he thinks a new Loar sounded like. My ear tends to like his stuff from the early 1990s through the mid-2000s. As a generalization i think they have a little fuller, beefier tone. And of course the x-braxed Engelmann tops are a whole other kind of sound. I think the absolute favorite Gilchrist I've ever had my hands on would have been Charlie Derrington's old F5 Classical model. While not your typical bluegrass mandolin that thing was a beautiful beast in every way.

To the OP, you really do have to play the hell out of them, especially if they've been sleeping for awhile. I used a Tone-Rite (sp?) on mine and it did make a difference. A slight difference but enough of one that I kept it on there quite a bit. Will it turn a dud into a tone monster? No! But it will give you 5-10% more oomph in my very unscientific opinion and anecdotal testing. It's also ok to say that Steve's instruments aren't for everybody and every one Steve has made is not magical. He's a human being working with natural materials. There will be differences in the instruments. While I've not played a Gil that I thought was a dog, I have played a few that I thought were exceedingly average especially when you figure in the price tag. When your'e dropping $20K on an instrument it better make you want to never stop playing it!

[DataNick]

Thank You Shaun for educating the rest of us...as usual spot on comments that teach if you're listening carefully!

Thanks Bro!...not that I'll ever be able to afford a Gil, but my taste in tone is closer to what you describe as your preferences; and now I have a ballpark range of instrument years to look at...in my dream world...LOL!

[NoNickel]

I don't have a Gil, but I do have a new Duff. There is no doubt playing opens up the box; especially since you are dealing with Red Spruce, Sugar Maple and tone bars. I was recently at Monroe Mandolin Camp and listened to Paul Duff and Will Kimble talking about the process. I don't know how anyone can dispute the "opening up" process when the fellows who make them (who have built about 400+ instruments between them and followed their progress) extoll it.

Big strings, a lot of play and, yes, keeping it on a tonerite all the time when you are not playing it will all help. I've got six months playing on my Duff and it has definitely changed in that short time. When I first got it, I was a little disappointed with the lack of bass and the too harsh trebles. Those issues are all gone now. The is much lusher and the trebles lost their harshness. I put .41-.12 strings on it (Curt Mangus) which are just right. I also use heavy picks and pick Compton style.

Also, this is not just my ears getting used to what I got or learning to bring the tone out of the mandolin. I had a very nice and well broken in BRW that I loved the tone of and compared it that from day 1. After about 4 months, the Duff passed the BRW and now is just great. I am looking forward to the next several years of growth.

[fscotte]

Send it to me. I'll open it up for you... But it'll cost you for me to put it back together....

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Shaun Garrity - "...I have played a few that I thought were exceedingly average...". Shaun,you're the first person to say that on here,at least as far as i can remember. You're most likely very correct in what you say. It would be ridiculous to think that even a world renowned luthier such as SG could conjour up astounding instruments all the time!. It's simply not possible IMHO,given the 'variables' in wood density/flexibility/tonal properties etc.,every one will sound different as we know,& some might not really 'make the grade' that Steve's looking for.Having said that,even they might find an owner to whom they sound fantastic.Our individual hearing & preferences are just as variable as the mandolins. When i first got my 'used' Lebeda,you might have thought that you'd get more tune out of the case than the mandolin & at the start,you'd have been right. But a few months of playing worked wonders on it,& since i've discovered what for me,is the perfect string/pick combo.,it's just superb,
Ivan

[Teak]

And here I thought that for higher-priced "name" mandolins the phrase "open up" referred to one's wallet.

[almeriastrings]

While I've not played a Gil that I thought was a dog, I have played a few that I thought were exceedingly average especially when you figure in the price tag. When your'e dropping $20K on an instrument it better make you want to never stop playing it!

I had a Loar here for a while (and I'm not talking about an LM700!)... also a Kentucky KM-1500 at the same time.... and you know what? I liked the KM-1500 better. Quite a bit better, actually. It is enough to make you question your own ears (or sanity?), but there you go... price tags (and expectations) do not always align in the way you might expect them to.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Almeria - "...but there you go... price tags (and expectations) do not always align in the way you might expect them to."
I strongly suspect that we all know & understand that point only too well,but when so many folk tell you that a top of the tree mandolin ALWAYS sounds better,how many people put their personal opinions behind them & go for the more expensive instrument with 'the name ' ??. It's a sort of ''The King's new clothes'' for mandolin players - we hear what we've been told to expect to hear ,& not what we actually hear. Most folk on here who've read my posts will know of my fondness for Ellis mandolins. I own one,but i've played 2 others belonging to visitors to the UK at festivals over here, & they were sublime. It would take an awful lot to shake my belief that Tom Ellis' mandolins aren't the best bargain around,& maybe i'll put Michael Heiden in there as well.
I'm very pleased indeed that the OP seems to be discovering just 'what' his Gil.can do at last & hopefully,it'll just get better for him. I still remember the day that after a few months of really hard playing,i took my Lebeda from it's case, & wow ! - it sounded terrific,& with my current string/pick combo.,it sounds far better,
Ivan

[kyken]

I had a Loar here for a while (and I'm not talking about an LM700!)... also a Kentucky KM-1500 at the same time.... and you know what? I liked the KM-1500 better. Quite a bit better, actually. It is enough to make you question your own ears (or sanity?), but there you go... price tags (and expectations) do not always align in the way you might expect them to.

I have built quite a few mandolins and have had some experience with "opening up". I'm under the impression that very little opening up will occur after the first hour. Whether it's played or just sitting, it will change sometimes drastically within a few minutes to an hour. As far as opening up over time, not gonna happen. If it's not good from the start, it won't ever be good. I have learned that there's not much you can do to make a poor sounding mandolin sound good and at the same time, there's not much you can do to make a good mandolin sound bad. It's very difficult to take a piece of wood that doesn't "thump" well and expect to get something from it. Can't draw blood from a turnip so to speak. Start with something good, and you'll end up with something good, maybe great. Of course there are a lot of little small things that can be done to improve something, but the differences will be very minor and mostly "in your head". There's a fine line between a good and a not so good one. Without a good "bottom end", might as well forget it. Of course the mids and highs are important too, but shrill only has no place for me. This is only my thoughts from many years of trial and error. Wood is very important, type and thump.

[Nick Gellie]

Ken, the folks at Northfield mandolins are in the same camp as you - they believe the tone and volume has got to be there in the first place. They reckon you can't beat a mandolin into submission. BTW the model M they are making now has small f holes like yours.

[Tom C]

I have old Grateful Dead recordings from the '60s that seem to open up the longer I listen to them too .

Basically I believe an instrument opens up but, I also believe one's ears adjust. When I pickup an instrument, after 10 minutes or so, I'm either impressed or not impressed. I've played 2 high end builder's side by side where you think the one you just put down sounded better no matter which one it was. I can't anticipate how something will sound down the road or how far down the road.