Learning on a High Action or Low Action Stringed Instrument.

[Purdy Bear]

My current favourite is Daisy ( a flat back A style with D hole), but she has a high action, my other two Mandolins (Belle (Blue grass A style round hole) and Marigold (Bowl Back) have low action strings. My theory is to learn on the high action strings as it builds up muscle etc in the hands, or am I wrong? Should I be learning on the easier instruments to play and then work up to the high action?

I'm not experienced enough to mess around with the bridge which is solid with no turn screws to lower the action.

[catmandu2]

If you've not yet already, please do reconsider your logic here.

Should I be learning on the easier instruments to play...(snip)?

Yes

My theory is to learn on the high action strings as it builds up muscle etc in the hands..

It can also easily cause injury, and poor technique. Best course is to consolidate all your resources and go for a set-up (no matter the instrument)

[Bertram Henze]

A few days from now, I'll use Google search to look for Daisy, Beĺle and Marigold, and for their low or high strings.

But seriously, playing ability is not supposed to be trained for fighting bad setup. Have that bridge corrected first.

[Purdy Bear]

Here's the photos, they are already in the info on Mandolin section I think:

Daisy - she has new strings John Pearse 2210s Medium:


Marigold - no new strings as yet.


Belle - she now has new strings the right way round, and not as shown here (E74s).


All displayed on a lap quilt I made for the dog.

[k0k0peli]

Learn on instruments that are setup to feel RIGHT for you, not DIFFICULT. Yes, injury is a possibility. Standard tuning with high action is usually desired by experienced pros for banjo-killing volume. You neither need nor want that yet. Neither do I but I do have a specific mandolin with high action -- it is detuned three 1/2-steps to a 'blues' tuning. Lowered tension makes the high action tolerable to my fingers (which have been playing mandolins off-and-on for 30 years).

[DavidKOS]

These guys are correct, get the action adjusted correctly on all your instruments.

Yes if you practice with good technique higher action may build a little more hand strength but unless there's a need for high action, you'd be better off with low or medium action.

[Purdy Bear]

Ok, thanks for all your help, I'll retire Daisy for a bit. Now which to use, either Belle or Marigold - humm any suggestions?

ps Could I use both on alternate days or practices?

[sblock]

Learn on instruments that are setup to feel RIGHT for you, not DIFFICULT. Yes, injury is a possibility. Standard tuning with high action is usually desired by experienced pros for banjo-killing volume.

The advice you gave is spot on! One should learn on instruments that are properly set up and upon which playing feels comfortable. That said, I don't believe that you are correct to write that "high action is usually desired by experienced pros for banjo-killing volume." Not so. First off, high action alone does not necessarily equate to louder volume. Heavier strings and a firmer right hand lead to louder volume. If you push hard enough, yes, it may be necessary to raise the strings a bit, but not excessively. Second, it's just not true that most of the "experienced pros" desire high actions. A high action was certainly true of Bill Monroe, and also of John Duffy. But Sam Bush's preferred action is moderate, and not that high. Ditto for Adam Steffey. And folks like Mike Marshall and Chris Thile and Joe Walsh and Sierra Hull all go for lower actions.

It's also true that lower actions tend to have less systematic problems with intonation. In fact, ALL fretted instruments should be set to have the lowest possible action that is consistent with no buzzing (i.e., noise due to intermittent fret contact by the strings after being struck), under normal conditions of play by their user. This will vary from instrument, and from player to player, of course. But the action in a properly set up instrument should be NO HIGHER than absolutely necessary to avoid buzzing. This is both a matter of ergonomics and musical accuracy.

[Mandoplumb]

As a kid I learned to play on a mandolin that noted very hard,it was a cheap mandolin all we could afford and didn't known that much about set-up. When I got a better mandolin that noted right I was used to pushing hard to note strings, it took years to totally get over that, not sure if I really have and that's been 50 years ago, when I get frustrated I stll find myself pushing too hard to note smooth and in tune. Learn on a mandolin that don't work you!!

[foldedpath]

It's also true that lower actions tend to have less systematic problems with intonation. In fact, ALL fretted instruments should be set to have the lowest possible action that is consistent with no buzzing (i.e., noise due to intermittent fret contact by the strings after being struck), under normal conditions of play by their user. This will vary from instrument, and from player to player, of course. But the action in a properly set up instrument should be NO HIGHER than absolutely necessary to avoid buzzing. This is both a matter of ergonomics and musical accuracy.

Not sure I agree 100% with that. It's definitely true that the lower you can get the action without buzzing, the better the intonation will be. No question there.

However, I do notice a slight improvement in volume and tone when I have the action set a little bit higher than the lowest I can get it without buzzing, on a neck where everything else is near-perfection in dressed frets, truss rod relief, nut slot height, and so on. My mandolin just sings a tiny bit sweeter at that point, compared to sneaking it down to the minimum height before buzzing. This may vary by individual instrument too.

I'm not sure what causes the higher volume and subjectively better tone, but it might be the increased break angle over the bridge. And I'm still talking about a very tiny increase in height over minimum-before-buzz setting. It's not something anyone would call high or even medium action.... just a bit higher than bare minimum.

[Maczart]

I've heard the statement that "raising the action will also increase the volume of a mandolin" many times but I've never really heard a good explanation of why that is so.

Of course, a higher action will allow a player to pick the strings harder, thus imparting more energy into the strings when the player desires more volume, without the buzzing that may occur with a lower action.

Is this what is people mean when they make this claim or are they claiming there is some other aspect of physics/geometry that I'm not aware of that, by raising the action, will make the mandolin just inherently louder? I welcome your expert opinions.

[sblock]

Not sure I agree 100% with that. It's definitely true that the lower you can get the action without buzzing, the better the intonation will be. No question there.

However, I do notice a slight improvement in volume and tone when I have the action set a little bit higher than the lowest I can get it without buzzing, on a neck where everything else is near-perfection in dressed frets, truss rod relief, nut slot height, and so on. My mandolin just sings a tiny bit sweeter at that point, compared to sneaking it down to the minimum height before buzzing. This may vary by individual instrument too.

I'm not sure what causes the higher volume and subjectively better tone, but it might be the increased break angle over the bridge. And I'm still talking about a very tiny increase in height over minimum-before-buzz setting. It's not something anyone would call high or even medium action.... just a bit higher than bare minimum.

I think there's a simple explanation for your observation. You seem to be comparing what one might call the "lowest possible" action setting (no obvious buzzing, and with everything else set up properly) with a "slightly-higher-than-lowest" setting (you called it "a little bit higher"). It may well be the the "lowest possible" setting is, in fact, just a bit TOO low because the strings occasionally hit the frets (but only barely!), particularly under slightly heavier picking. This, of course, may be hard to hear on the fly, but it robs the strings of their optimal tone. So, going JUST A TAD higher prevents even the occasional collision, and sounds "sweeter" to your ear. Makes perfect sense.

If so, then this whole discussion just comes down to a matter of terminology, and how one chooses to decide when low is low enough! For me, backing off just a tad and raising the bridge by a fraction of turn from the point where buzzing begins IS the "lowest possible action" -- because, as a matter of definition, that's just how I think about it. But for you, this same action corresponds to a "slightly-higher-than-lowest" setting. But we're both talking about the same thing.

In principle, there should be no sonic benefit to raising the action beyond the point where fretted strings don't strike the frets or fingerboard when plucked. This is a matter of geometry and physics. Put another way, if you manage to hear a difference by raising the action ever-so-slightly, then the chances are good that the strings were beginning to strike the frets, every so slightly, at the lower setting. The actual change in string break angle, string tension, etc. associated with raising the action by roughly 0.01 to 0.1 inch -- which is what we're talking about here when we back off a tad -- is WAY to small to account for changes in tone. I surmise that any difference in tone is associated with tiny, almost imperceptible collisions of the vibrating string and the frets.

[foldedpath]

I've heard the statement that "raising the action will also increase the volume of a mandolin" many times but I've never really heard a good explanation of why that is so.

Of course, a higher action will allow a player to pick the strings harder, thus imparting more energy into the strings when the player desires more volume, without the buzzing that may occur with a lower action.

Is this what is people mean when they make this claim or are they claiming there is some other aspect of physics/geometry that I'm not aware of that, by raising the action, will make the mandolin just inherently louder? I welcome your expert opinions.

I'm no expert... so until one actually chimes in on this... I think it may have something to do with what's called the "break angle" (or breakover angle) of the strings over the saddle with an archtop instrument. This affects the downforce and therefore the efficiency of transfer from string vibration to the soundboard, so a higher angle = more volume. Or something like that.

Break angle is also affected by whether the neck is aligned properly to the body, and whether the soundboard is still at original height or has sunk down a little bit, which reduces break angle. So bridge height adjustments on different instruments may not have the same results, depending on what your baseline is.

And that's about as far as I can go with it.

I think there's a simple explanation for your observation. You seem to be comparing what one might call the "lowest possible" action setting (no obvious buzzing, and with everything else set up properly) with a "slightly-higher-than-lowest" setting (you called it "a little bit higher"). It may well be the the "lowest possible" setting is, in fact, just a bit TOO low because the strings occasionally hit the frets (but only barely!), particularly under slightly heavier picking. This, of course, may be hard to hear on the fly, but it robs the strings of their optimal tone. So, going JUST A TAD higher prevents even the occasional collision, and sounds "sweeter" to your ear. Makes perfect sense.

Hmmm.... maybe. Raising the action to remove the more obvious buzz, might still leave the strings at a point where they're barely touching the frets at the mid-point vibration. Maybe enough to kill some volume.

Or, it could have something to do with increasing break angle, or maybe a combination of the two. I dunno.

Either way, in practical terms, I lower the action until I hear the strings buzz a tiny bit, then raise it until I hear two things -- the buzz gone, and the strings starting to come alive with volume and tone. It's never been enough to raise the action only to the point where the buzz is gone, at least on this particular instrument.

[sblock]

[VIMEO][/VIMEO]

I'm no expert... so until one actually chimes in on this... I think it may have something to do with what's called the "break angle" (or breakover angle) of the strings over the saddle with an archtop instrument. This affects the downforce and therefore the efficiency of transfer from string vibration to the soundboard, so a higher angle = more volume. Or something like that.

Break angle is also affected by whether the neck is aligned properly to the body, and whether the soundboard is still at original height or has sunk down a little bit, which reduces break angle. So bridge height adjustments on different instruments may not have the same results, depending on what your baseline is.

And that's about as far as I can go with it.



Hmmm.... maybe. Raising the action to remove the more obvious buzz, might still leave the strings at a point where they're barely touching the frets at the mid-point vibration. Maybe enough to kill some volume.

Or, it could have something to do with increasing break angle, or maybe a combination of the two. I dunno.

Either way, in practical terms, I lower the action until I hear the strings buzz a tiny bit, then raise it until I hear two things -- the buzz gone, and the strings starting to come alive with volume and tone. It's never been enough to raise the action only to the point where the buzz is gone, at least on this particular instrument.

Whatever the difference is, it's definitely NOT likely to be due to the change in the string break angle over the bridge. The scale length of a mandolin is about 14" (13 7/8" on Gibsons). The difference between "low-low" action (as we discussed earlier, strings just a bit higher than when they buzz) and action that is just "slightly higher than that" is a matter of raising the bridge by somewhere around 0.1" or even less, as I pointed out earlier. That small an adjustment increases the string break angle (on the fretboard side) by a mere 7 milliradians, at most. That's just 0.4 of a single degree! Now, the break angle on an F5 is around 16 degrees, so we're talking about a change of just a few percent, at most. The mandolin tone is just not THAT sensitive to the exact value of the break angle; ask any luthier.

I would argue instead that the strings seem to "come alive" in your example because (1) you lower the action until they begin to buzz, then (2) raise it until they "just stop" buzzing -- but, in fact, they actually still make tiny, but nearly inaudible excursions that cause them to just graze the frets from time to time, robbing them of energy, especially when hit hard -- and then you (3) raise the action just a trifle more. If you simply combined steps (2) and (3) and raised the strings a trifle more than you do from the "just buzz" position in the first place, then it would amount to exactly the same thing! They only thing we're quibbling about is how much to raise them from the "just buzz" position to get that "alive" tone to which you referred.

Regardless of all that, I think we all agree that a high action, per se, is never desirable on a mandolin. The action should be as low as possible to still be consistent with that "alive," "sweet" tone under whatever right-hand pressure you tend to drive your own instrument.

[Purdy Bear]

I have changed over to Marigold, the strings are a LOT easier, the only downside is the frets are smaller. It's going to take me a while to get used to the correct spacing. It's not going to be a bad thing though as I'm learning the Soprano Ukulele and they are roughly the same size.

PS just a little update I'm on my next batch of notes, so this week I will be up to 15 notes learning/learnt and 6 chords so far.

[Cobalt]

I have changed over to Marigold, the strings are a LOT easier, the only downside is the frets are smaller. It's going to take me a while to get used to the correct spacing.

I think this is one good reason to stick to just one particular mandolin for a while (at least a week at a time, or according to personal preference). Even instruments with similar dimensions can have a different feel, though it's good to play different instruments, I find it beneficial to stay with one for a while, in order to get used to its own particular feel and sound.

[Mark Wilson]

My first mandolin was a little hard to fret. When I got one setup correctly I spent months (re)learning proper technique (how to not press notes too hard)

[Bertram Henze]

Of course, a higher action will allow a player to pick the strings harder, thus imparting more energy into the strings when the player desires more volume, without the buzzing that may occur with a lower action.

Is this what is people mean when they make this claim...?

Exactly that is my guess.
And there is another factor: tonal quality is often compromised by saddles leaning towards the fretboard, and raising the action even a little bit can counter that (temporarily, until the tilt becomes worse), while simply forcing the saddle into upright position would achieve the same.

[Sevelos]

I agree with the opinions above - better train with low action (but without buzzing).
Like some of the people here, I also played many years a mandolin with a relatively high action. Now, having another mandolin with low action, I notice that my fingers begin their descend towards the strings way higher than neccesary. I guess this "wastes time" and causes me to play slower than I could.
I have seen several videos of extremely fast "heavy-metal" guitar players, and they keep their fingers almost at string height all the time, perhaps a millimeter or two above the strings. Although an acoustic mandolin is not an electric guitar, yet the fact that I keep my fingers perhaps a whole centimeter above the strings (because I'm used to high action) seems really exagerated.

[Purdy Bear]

It's interesting to see the difference in the height of the fingers of well known players:

Caterina Leichtenberg looks pretty high, as does Marissa Carroll

Caterina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbJ1pDmFPL8

Marissa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auCYxVJ0w_g

But then you have Yahui Chen who looks low to my inexperienced eye:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmMdiMfENNw

Two of her fingers hardly lift off the fret at all.

I wonder if it's the kind of Mandolin as well, for instance those who learn on the Neopolitan type compared to the Bluegrass?