Burgess mandolins

[Johannes Oksanen]

I´m looking for a new mandolin for bluegrass (only) and I found Burgess mandolins in Ebay. They are inexpensive and hand carved hence they are quite interesting compared to mandos of other manufacturers in the price range. I live in Finland and choices here are very limited when you are looking for a f-style. Actually, my question is Kentucky vs. Burgess or Eastman vs Burgess.

Does someone has any experience of Burgess? How are their f-models? I have a flat top Levin and I like it a lot but since it´s a flat top it´s not very good in chopping.

[Mandoplumb]

It's been said a time or two here but if your budget is small get a carved top A, more bang for the buck.I play only BG and I have two great A style mandolins.

[houseworker]

Burgess mandolin: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Luthier-Burg...a/262045213950

Kentucky mandolin: http://www.folkmusician.com/Kentucky...ctinfo/KM-150/

The KM-150 is the classic starter mandolin, and definitely the one to go for here.

[Bill Snyder]

If you are looking at the one houseworker posted a link to definitely get the Kentucky. The Burgess is a flattop mandolin made from a poor choice of topwood.

[Johannes Oksanen]

Thanks for comments.

Mandoplumb: Yes, probably A-model is a wise choice.

Houseworker, Bill: I was looking this http://www.ebay.com/itm/262078505746...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It seems to be a carved top. I´m not looking the cheapest possible entry mando but something between 1000-2500 USD. Maybe I should just get an eastman A (or F) or Breedlove FF.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Go for a Kentucky brand mandolin such as the KM-150 shown by houseworker.The KY brand has maybe a better 'Bluegrass' pedigree than the Eastmans.
If you can stretch your budget to $1,000 US,than have a good look at the Kentucky KM-1000 model. It's modeled after the only known Lloyd Loar "A" style & has a terrific reputation as a very,very good sounding instrument. Buy one of those & i feel thatyour search 'might' be over for quite a while - https://themandolinstore.com/product...mandolin-case/
Ivan

[houseworker]

A style
Kentucky KM-900: http://www.folkmusician.com/Kentucky...ctinfo/KM-900/

Kentucky KM-950: http://www.folkmusician.com/Kentucky...ctinfo/KM-950/

F style
Kentucky KM-1000: http://www.folkmusician.com/Kentucky...tinfo/KM-1000/

Kentucky KM-1050: http://www.folkmusician.com/Kentucky...tinfo/KM-1050/

In each of those models, the 50 version updates the neck profile, and scoops the Florida extension. These are four professional grade instruments. Ivan was referring to the KM-900 rather than the KM-1000. The scroll on the KM-1000 is an aesthetic choice (at an additional $600), it adds nothing acoustically.

There's a reason why "Luthier Burgess" is selling his work on eBay and it's not because his work is superior to Chinese made instruments. I'd take the KM-150 over that instrument you linked to any day.

[almeriastrings]

I was looking this http://www.ebay.com/itm/262078505746...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It seems to be a carved top. I´m not looking the cheapest possible entry mando but something between 1000-2500 USD. Maybe I should just get an eastman A (or F) or Breedlove FF.

That is some RUSTIC (I am being polite!) looking work on that Burgess...

Seriously, you should hear what everyone is saying. Look at some of the higher end Kentucky mandolins. KM-900, KM-1000, etc.

They are really good instruments. Very respected, hold their value, play well, sound excellent.

[jim simpson]

It looks like he's been busy lately - there are quite a few of his mandolins showing up (newly listed) on Ebay.

[colorado_al]

I'm interested in checking out some of these mandolins. He gets rave reviews on his FB page and on ebay.
Stiver #60 that I checked out at an auction the other day wasn't too much different in terms of finish, and it sounded great!
This guy has 100 mandolins built. Some of the woods certainly are unorthodox, but impossible to know how they would sound without playing one. Anyone live near Glasgow, KY who can go check them out?
It'd be hard to live that close to Nashville and make & sell lots of mandolins that were crap.

[Paul Hogue]

I will never understand people who review an instrument without having touched one. I have owned two of his instruments. When he started out, the early instruments he made like mine, #18, were a little rough, had some finish issues, but were otherwise good instruments and an astonishing value for $200. By the way, they were literally handmade here in Kentucky. I just bought #112, and the quality is now absolutely top notch. The finish is gorgeous, and the improvements he has made to the neck, structure, the bridge, and everything else is obvious. You can get a handmade F-style mandolin for $800, less if you can catch one in an auction. Mine has a weeping willow top, with hard cherry body, walnut fingerboard, maple inlaid fret markers, and black walnut binding. It is gorgeous, and sounds astonishing. If you are looking for another Loar-like sound copy, this isn't it, but it sounds beautiful. He basically just sells on eBay, but has a dedicated base of customers who are thrilled with what he is putting out. As far as tone woods, he is using mostly local woods, but not exclusively. Some are not traditional woods, but then again, if you buy a Chinese instrument and it says it has mahogany, you can bet it's probably toona sinensis. It's a good wood, but it's not "genuine mahogany." It's in a different genus. People are so snooty about woods without considering that other things alter tone as well, like thickness, finish, age, moisture, how it was sanded, how it was cut, where it was grown, what kind of diseases the tree may have encountered, etc. For the price you can try out his instruments and if nothing else you are getting a handmade instrument from the US, which is worth something as well. By the way, I have an Eastwood that I absolutely love, and I am not knocking them. I am saying that in ten or twenty years people like me that bought these instruments will have something far exceeding their original value.

[George R. Lane]

OK Paul,
Post some sound samples and photos of his latest work. Just because some folks are leery of someone we have never heard about doesn't mean they are trashing his work. If someone wants a recommendation for mandolin built by someone I never heard from, I am going to say by from an established builder. Maybe this guy will become the builder of choice or maybe not. A $200.00 mandolin will never be worth more in twenty years.

[multidon]

Paul, welcome to the forum! Funny you joined 2 years ago and just got around to making your first post.

I don't think it's a matter of snobbery. I think it's just that spruce over maple has had such a long track record of success in producing the characteristic sound we expect, so many of us are not willing to consider any other wood combination. A willow top over cherry body is not typical at all. I would not be surprised to see that combination of woods on a lap dulcimer though.

Additionally, when a builder only sells on eBay, you have no opportunity to play before you buy. Yes, there is a return period but shipping something back is a major PITA and you have to eat shipping both ways. People are often unwilling to take a chance like that on an unknown builder. I have bought some instruments without playing them first, but when you're buying a Weber or a Kentucky, it is viewed as more of a known quantity.

Personally, I applaud makers willing to explore alternatives to the traditional wood combos. I have seen cedar, redwood, and fir tops as well as Osage orange, walnut, zebra wood, and mango bodies. Good for them. But the buyers of those instruments have to be willing to think outside the box, a rare commodity these days in the world of "that ain't no part of nothin'".

[jim simpson]

It looks like Burgess has a facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/KentuckyGuitars/

Non traditional woods for sure, interesting choices.

[Ron McMillan]

Instead of the contempt that others seem to feel, I say well done Mr Burgess.

There's a lot of very rigid thinking in the mandolin world, so it's nice to see someone doing his own thing - and finding people who appreciate what he does.

[Bill Snyder]

My comment earlier was not just about the species of the top wood. On the mandolin I was referring to he used a flatsawn piece of wood. No matter the species that is not a particularly good cut for top wood.

[SGraham]

If you follow the link above in Jim's post to Edward Burgess' Facebook page, you can hear several sound samples. He's making some really cool instruments.

[Jtharris18]

Instead of the contempt that others seem to feel, I say well done Mr Burgess.

There's a lot of very rigid thinking in the mandolin world, so it's nice to see someone doing his own thing - and finding people who appreciate what he does.

I have played both a Burgess A and F model and will give you my impressions.

A friend of mine received one of his earlier A models as a Christmas gift, purchased from a local small shop reseller. The neck is a little wider/thicker than standard, the woods are different from standard, but beautiful in a rustic fashion imo. And the mandolin absolutely rings like a bell. It will simply kick the snot out of any Eastman or Kentucky A model I've ever played. To get a better mandolin for the money (~$400), well...you simply can't. You'd have to get up into the Collings/Northfield range to substantially improve it. I only wish he would advertise and make more of his earlier A designs because I would certainly buy one. It does take some getting used to the neck size but as I'm also a guitarist it didn't bother me.

After hearing his A model, I ordered one of his F models sight unseen off eBay. I assumed it would be a steal for $800. In terms of the top end and midrange, you'd be hard pressed to find a mandolin that would cut through a power bluegrass lineup like that one. The notes on the unwound strings sounded fabulous. What was missing was the woodiness in the low tones. We compared it to my cousin's Northfield (keep in mind a mandolin costing 3x as much). The difference mostly appears to be in the thickness of the top. The Burgess is much thicker which probably stiffens the low tones significantly.

When I conversed with Mr. Burgess about it, he said his instruments were built "to last 150 years, not fly apart in 30". Thus the thicker woods. Fair enough. Only problem is I don't have 150 years to wait. So in short, I asked for a return/refund on the F model and he graciously complied without hesitation, including initial shipping costs. The guy is honest, innovative, and backs up his work. What more can you ask for? If you're worried about buying off eBay, don't be.

I'm not sure if he has modified his F design any since the feedback I gave. You'd have to ask him directly. To me his instruments have something "special" that you can't get from a factory in China or wherever. Handmade, unique, and beautiful in a hand-crafted way. The A that my friend has is amazing and I'd put it up against any F model costing 3 times as much. You have to go upwards of $1500 to beat it.

[yankees1]

Not with mandolins but David Burgess is one of the top violin makers in the world ! From Michigan I believe.

[almeriastrings]

There are a couple of his F styles on ebay right now.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EdwardBurges...gAAOSwt7pXL-tx

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EdwardBurges...AAAOSwxfNXOTDa

The 'Zoom' feature comes in useful.... check the neck joint areas.

[Scott C.]

JT, witch mandolin did you send back, number wise? What kind of wood was it made of? I have been watching this post and his auctions, thinking about trying one.

[Petrus]

When I conversed with Mr. Burgess about it, he said his instruments were built "to last 150 years, not fly apart in 30". Thus the thicker woods.

We already have mandolins going on 100+ years old and 300+ year old violins (very delicately made) so the masters must've been doing something right. Granted, I'd like my mandolin to be able to withstand a direct hit from a thermonuclear warhead, but it's really not necessary.

I've seen a lot of Burgess mandolins on eBay over the past few years. It is interesting to use alternative woods and I don't see any problem with that in itself (I saw a koa Weber on Reverb a while back) and using locally sourced woods is great. I'd have to actually play one though to make a fair judgement. I doubt that Burgess is going to evolve over time into the next Monteleone or whoever, but at their price point they might be work a look!

BTW it's intriguing that he's incorporated a Virzi into several of his instruments ... You don't see a lot of that in modern makers.

[fentonjames]

My comment earlier was not just about the species of the top wood. On the mandolin I was referring to he used a flatsawn piece of wood. No matter the species that is not a particularly good cut for top wood.

this summer, i became seriously strapped for cash. i had two mandolins. one a 60's gibson a-40, the other a 60's harmony oval hole a, like a martin without the cant. in terms of tone and sustain the harmony killed the gibson. after a few weeks, i determined that my gibson was a dog and sold it. the harmony has flat sawn solid birch for the top, actually the whole body. thing rings like a bell.

i recently got the f bug again and partially because of the harmony, and partially again due to my budget issues, decided to try a burgess and it's flat sawn woods. it should be here next week. i've owned a wide range of mandolins, from oscar schmidt, to mid missouri, to loar, to godin, to weber to gibson, to regal, to harmony. i've seen the whole range (up to that point) for quality and tone. i'll post an objective review of the burgess when after it arrives.

honestly, i'm attracted to the fact that he is sort of rustic/unique.

[Bill Kammerzell]

this summer, i became seriously strapped for cash. i had two mandolins. one a 60's gibson a-40, the other a 60's harmony oval hole a, like a martin without the cant. in terms of tone and sustain the harmony killed the gibson. after a few weeks, i determined that my gibson was a dog and sold it. the harmony has flat sawn solid birch for the top, actually the whole body. thing rings like a bell.

i recently got the f bug again and partially because of the harmony, and partially again due to my budget issues, decided to try a burgess and it's flat sawn woods. it should be here next week. i've owned a wide range of mandolins, from oscar schmidt, to mid missouri, to loar, to godin, to weber to gibson, to regal, to harmony. i've seen the whole range (up to that point) for quality and tone. i'll post an objective review of the burgess when after it arrives.

honestly, i'm attracted to the fact that he is sort of rustic/unique.

I owned one for a time and liked it very much. It was well worth the money I paid for it. A guitar playing friend of mine wanted it badly as it had the wider neck and he loved playing it, so I sold it and broke even. The sound was very good, fine playability and there were no finish issues.

[fentonjames]

it came. it's going back.