help with doublestops

[choctaw61]

I've been working on doublestops for about a month or so.I'm no better with them today than when I started.I try using more pick,less pick.I'm either digging in to deep on the strings or barely touch them.Never smooth sound.It's not as bad when I use the one pick that has a rounded tip,but it's paper thin.The thickest pick i have is 1.14 mm.(thickest my local music store had).It is more pointed.Really digs into the strings.could the pick be some of the trouble.I'd really appreciate some help.I hope to start some lessons here soon.Thanks in advance

[Pete Martin]

Hold the pick with MUCH less muscle force between the thumb and index finger and turn the pick slightly so it not exactly flat to the strings.

This combination should help. Best of luck!

[choctaw61]

Thank U ,Mr.Pete! Gna work on it now.


Whoa! Hey that makes a huge difference.Thanks again Mr.Pete!

[JonZ]

I learned the tunes in Pete Martin's double stop book at a really slow tempo, just trying to use the wrist, stay relaxed, and get even tone on the up and down strokes, without hitting any adjacent strings. Then I gradually increased my speed. Same old story--play it effortlessly slow before you try faster.

[Mandoplumb]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what are y'all calling a double stop.I have always thought it to be noting (stopping) 2 string and playing as one, usually a melody and a harmonizing note. If that is what you are referring to I don't understand the reference to up and down picking, I usually play it with downstroke in passing.

[Tobin]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what are y'all calling a double stop.I have always thought it to be noting (stopping) 2 string and playing as one, usually a melody and a harmonizing note. If that is what you are referring to I don't understand the reference to up and down picking, I usually play it with downstroke in passing.

Yes, a double-stop is a two-note chord. Usually a melody note along with a harmony note, as you mentioned. Some folks just use these at the end of a phrase where there's a quarter note, because it's easy to just play it on a downstroke. But playing moving double-stops can really make the music come alive when used for the whole melody, played on the eighth-notes, using up-and-down picking. But it takes a lot more precision with the picking to get a good balanced sound from both strings when using the up-stroke. It requires a lighter pick grip and a more even stroke.

[JonZ]

Please forgive my ignorance, but what are y'all calling a double stop.I have always thought it to be noting (stopping) 2 string and playing as one, usually a melody and a harmonizing note. If that is what you are referring to I don't understand the reference to up and down picking, I usually play it with downstroke in passing.

In Bluegrass double stops are often used at the end of a phrase, on a held note with tremolo.

[bradlaird]

Choctaw61,
Here is a little video lesson with some of my thoughts on double stops:

I admit that the topic in this video (and the two sister video lessons) is more about "where" they live rather than "how" to get them sounding good and picking technique. I can see you've already gotten some good suggestions in that regard here from other forum members.

[Mandoplumb]

Yes, a double-stop is a two-note chord. Usually a melody note along with a harmony note, as you mentioned. Some folks just use these at the end of a phrase where there's a quarter note, because it's easy to just play it on a downstroke. But playing moving double-stops can really make the music come alive when used for the whole melody, played on the eighth-notes, using up-and-down picking. But it takes a lot more precision with the picking to get a good balanced sound from both strings when using the up-stroke. It requires a lighter pick grip and a more even stroke.

So what you are describing would be like noting double stops and tremoloing thru the melody or parts thereof. I try to do that some a mandolin player that was a big influence on me when I started many years ago did that a lot.

[John Flynn]

Based on your description, I'd say go with the heavy, pointed pick, but hold it lightly and avoid digging in with it. Let the pick do the work! Mike Compton gave two bits of advice at a workshop once that still help me with double-stops.

The first is he said think of the pick as if it is a violin bow. You're brushing the pick across the strings rather than plucking them. I know the following will sound a bit crazy, but it's one of those mental image things. I have interpreted Mike's advice in my own mental image as if the pick is not solid, but a brush like a paint brush and I am brushing dust off the strings. My wrist and fingers are very relaxed. I let the tip of the pick do the work, but I don't force it to do the work. I'm just holding the "brush handle."

The second bit of advice was to add a slight circular dimension to the up and down and picking. So you let the natural "hinge" of the wrist create a slight oval pattern. When you're down stroking, the tip of the pick is arching slightly toward the headstock and on the upstroke, it is arching a little back towards the bridge. It's a very slight thing. Like the first suggestion, it is almost as much a mental image as it is physical.

[Mark Gunter]

I've been working on doublestops for about a month or so.I'm no better with them today than when I started.I try using more pick,less pick.I'm either digging in to deep on the strings or barely touch them.Never smooth sound.It's not as bad when I use the one pick that has a rounded tip,but it's paper thin.The thickest pick i have is 1.14 mm.(thickest my local music store had).It is more pointed.Really digs into the strings.could the pick be some of the trouble.I'd really appreciate some help.I hope to start some lessons here soon.Thanks in advance

All the advice has been great already, I just wanted to add that you can re-shape the heavy pick you like to "match up" with the rounded tip of the pick that's too thin. That is exactly what I do, and it has worked wonders for my mandolin playing, especially in learning tremolo technique.

Another thing I would offer is, that if you having been working on doublestops for a month with no discernable improvement, and you have put any significant time practicing them during that month, it is good that you posted for advice. It is not good to practice it that long and not see results; actually, it indicates that the exercises are the wrong ones for your goal, or the way you perform the exercises needs improvement. It could be a simple matter of pick technique or something more complicated, like the wrong exercises or the wrong regimen in how you perform the exercises.

Hopefully, experimenting with picks and right hand technique will get you there.



Edit: I shaped my picks using a fingernail emery board; works fine in lieu of sandpapers.

[SincereCorgi]

Is your single-string tremolo already pretty good? If it's not, I'd back up and polish that up, first.

All your single-string tremolo exercises can be used for double-stops, and for three- and four-string shapes later on. It takes a lot of repetitions to make it relaxed and accurate. It also helps to think about how much of your motion is coming from the elbow and how much from the wrist. Elbow-only tremolo is powerful but tends to be sloppy.

[choctaw61]

Thanks everyone for the great advice. I really appreciate it.Markscart i will work on one of these picks. SincereCorgi I do ok with tremelo,i find it easy.But I trying to squeeze the pick into to pieces.lol.I do have some trouble on relaxing shoulder,elbow,and wrist due to damage in arm from my motorcycle wreck.I'm not using that for an excuse tho.I see areas that i was really in bad form. Thanks again!

[Tobin]

So what you are describing would be like noting double stops and tremoloing thru the melody or parts thereof. I try to do that some a mandolin player that was a big influence on me when I started many years ago did that a lot.

You can tremolo double-stops, sure, but it isn't necessary to use tremolo. You can play a straight melody in eighth notes and quarter notes, just as it was originally intended, using double-stops. Again, it will take some adjustment to the pick stroke in order to get balanced sound from two strings at a time as opposed to playing a single melody string at a time. (This is one of the few cases where the fiddle is actually easier to play, thanks to the way that a bow can provide even sound from two strings at a time.)

And keep in mind that even though the term double-stop may imply that both notes are fretted, it can and should include drone strings, where you're simply droning an open string along with another fretted string when it fits the chord progression.

One of the best primers I've found for double-stops is Pete Martin's Bluegrass Mandolin: Creating and Using Double Stops. It's 97 pages worth of good info, with copious examples.

It's very rare that I play anything without using double-stops. Once you start doing them and get familiar with the patterns, it becomes second-nature. But I have fallen out of favor with the "plinky-plinky" sound of just single-string picking. Double-stops tend to fill out the music and give it character by implying more of the components of the chord progression.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

The most difficult thing is pick grip for most people. How hard to hold it that will keep control yet allow it to flow smoothly over the strings. This issue is much easier with a thin pick as the pick will give instead of your hand/fingers giving. As the pick gets heavier, it gives less so you must compensate with pick grip. Start with using a very thin pick. This will sound bad but will help you learn the necessary right hand (I'm assuming you are right handed) motion. Then slowly, over time increase pick thickness in stages but only change once you get comfortable with the tremelo at that thickness. Your tone will get better as the pick gets heavier.

[Iron]

Loose pick and lots of practice

[DavidKOS]

Based on your description, I'd say go with the heavy, pointed pick, but hold it lightly and avoid digging in with it. Let the pick do the work!
........

The second bit of advice was to add a slight circular dimension to the up and down and picking. So you let the natural "hinge" of the wrist create a slight oval pattern. When you're down stroking, the tip of the pick is arching slightly toward the headstock and on the upstroke, it is arching a little back towards the bridge. It's a very slight thing. Like the first suggestion, it is almost as much a mental image as it is physical.

I use this circular picking technique all the time, thanks for bringing it up.

You can tremolo double-stops, sure, but it isn't necessary to use tremolo.

.

But it sounds so good!

Also check out the exercises in the Calace Metodo_per_mandolino_Parte_5:

http://www.federmandolino.it/listing...o_Parte_5a.pdf

[Mark Gunter]

David, thanks for sharing the exercises.

[HonketyHank]

...

Also check out the exercises in the Calace Metodo_per_mandolino_Parte_5:

http://www.federmandolino.it/listing...o_Parte_5a.pdf

My French skills are meagre, my Italian skills are nonexistent. But the preamble to the Calace exercises seems to point out that the exercises are to be performed using a rapid, light tremolo which can be attained through proper exercises for the right wrist (?) (pouls - I thought that was a chicken, but I suspect wrist is better in this context).

I intend to transcribe these into TablEdit. Calace's indication of which left hand fingers are used is very helpful, but I suspect tabs might help me even more.

I add my thanks for posting these exercises.

edit (addendum): I just poked around in the link that David included and was amazed to find Calace's complete mandolin course and many mandolin scores as well. Wow. Lots of stuff to work with. I may be polishing up my French and Italian as I go.

Thanks again, David.

[DavidKOS]

I'm happy to help folks get access to the great mandolin books - I'm just the messenger, the masters wrote those books.

[JonZ]

The most difficult thing is pick grip for most people. How hard to hold it that will keep control yet allow it to flow smoothly over the strings. This issue is much easier with a thin pick as the pick will give instead of your hand/fingers giving. As the pick gets heavier, it gives less so you must compensate with pick grip. Start with using a very thin pick. This will sound bad but will help you learn the necessary right hand (I'm assuming you are right handed) motion. Then slowly, over time increase pick thickness in stages but only change once you get comfortable with the tremelo at that thickness. Your tone will get better as the pick gets heavier.

I think most people will be better off to start slowly and work with the actual pick they want to use. The point is to learn to grip the pick properly; playing with a pick that compensates for a poor grip is counterproductive to that goal.

[keitha]

Choctaw61,
Here is a little video lesson with some of my thoughts on double stops:

I admit that the topic in this video (and the two sister video lessons) is more about "where" they live rather than "how" to get them sounding good and picking technique. I can see you've already gotten some good suggestions in that regard here from other forum members.

Great video, be glad when I can purchase some of your books in Europe ��

[Steve Jeter]

this youtuber Bob Remington This youtuber only has 2 vids on mandolin,, but I think they are both great , I just need to learn them :0
https://youtu.be/4KpU6pkMQ2o

[DavidKOS]

Who's this guy?



or him?



and him...and a bunch of others?


some of this should help!

[DavidKOS]

it will work on mandolin too....so I tell myself.


more....

6ths seem easier...3rds are very cool....