I don't understand the reference to circle impressions, but that looks like a real find. Congratulations.
Yeah, I can see 'em. Looks like the headstock was originally drilled incorrectly, then plugged and redrilled.
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The tuners are worm over, which hardly ever - if at all - appeared (on Gibsons) before the mid/late '20s. Not original, I'd say. Especially since there are plugged holes. Here's what an original pattern would look like (from MA):
And Henry wins the cookie again!
I only see one thing wrong,
It's not mine!
Enjoy
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Very nice!
I wonder... is the neck original? F4 models, even in 1922, would have had a two-piece neck with a center strip of ebony (?) down the middle, and the back of the peg head was black. In your photos, I don't see that center strip of wood (although it may be there and the photo just isn't close enough to catch it), and the back of the peg head is stained the same as everything else.
Thoughts?
Yes, that's a nice one. Did it originate in Canada?
It has been redrilled for the newer style Waverly tuners, worm over gear. And, yes, no peghead veneer on the back of the headstock. Something went on there, but, no matter, still a really nice F4 for sure!
Tobin; I never have figured out the centre strip of ebony thing on the neck. I have seen them each way, in different periods. Some with, some without...? But, you may well be right.
Those center strips were not ebony, but some lighter colored wood dyed black, don't know which species. Some of those strips wear and bleach a bit. I believe the wider, early, no-truss rod necks generally had the strips. Two (what appear to be) transitional examples of early one-piece necks, #72014 and #72274 (pics from MA). I can't really tell, is there a center strip? At least it seems to be the earlier, sharper "V" neck shape.
Last edited by Hendrik Ahrend; Nov-06-2015 at 11:27am.
I was told once that the dyed wood was pear wood, as the peg head veneers were too.
Re-necked or not, it is very pretty, I have always had a soft spot for F-4s!
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
With all the modifications and repairs, I'll take it if you don't want it. I hope it is a player.
Those both appear to have two-piece necks with a center strip.
On a side note, I do wish more people would take better photographs of their instruments when submitting them to the archive. Many of the F4s I checked don't even have photos of the back of the peg head. I guess they figured the only thing anyone would ever want to see on the back of the mandolin is the back plate. But for obvious reasons, it's important to be able to see details all over the instrument when looking at the archive for comparison.
Hi.. before making assumptions on the neck being replaced.. I will get better photos up of the back of the neck and heel.. I see no signs of any changes ..
If it's done well, you might not see it.
There is also the possibility that the replacement machine posts may have been enough shorter as to have made removal of the veneer necessary. OK that might be a long shot but its all I can come up with.
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
To all that replied.. thank you.. after doing a few comparisons to other F4s on line.. I see what you are talking about.. this is where I learn..
I like the little thing, but sure not disclosed for what I bought from the seller .. I would in time like to get a F5..but that might take a bit..
Thank you.
Do you think you've been "bamboozled" about something? The neck thing might not have been something the seller was even remotely aware of, if it causes you great pain, you can give it to me to keep for you, I will treat it kindly!
Just enjoy it, it's had a long life and needs some friend to take care of it, you are that friend now.
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
Well, just food for thought...
Why did you buy this F4? As a collector piece, or to play? If you like it and the sound pleases you, don't worry about the neck. It may be a replacement, which would explain the plugged holes in the peg head overlay - they probably transferred the original veneer to the new peg head to keep it as original as possible. It looks like it was a good job. That is part of the instrument's history now, if indeed that's what happened. The neck is not the most important part of the vintage tone that your F4 is giving you. I'm sure if the neck was replaced, it was necessary to keep it playing. So play it! And enjoy it! It's still a very cool thing to own, and others here are envious of it.
I bought it for both reasons.. I had a few A Models prior.. they were neat.. but just not neat enough.. Im not bummed about this.. I do realize that over the years instrument change hands and through time changes happen to instruments as well. who ever did the replacement if the neck was replaced ,was good.. the seam from heel to body is tight and I cannot see any type of marks noticing the change.. I just thought it was wierd that 8 circle marks would be above 8 string posts.. those circles are vague and are barely noticable unless seen at a certain angle.. Ill post more pictures.. thanks everyone..
A good shot of the back of the peghead close-up and the back of the neck might be informative. You have a lovely mandolin. Years ago the availability of parts was limited, nothing like what we have today. Older mandolins used a different spacing and also used a "worm under" gear, whereas later mandolins mostly use the "worm over" gear tuners like yours has. A certain amount of detective work is involved in figuring out what might happened in the last 90 years....some of it, can only be a guess. I clicked the (+) featured on your photos to enlarge them and the tuners look like the Waverlys used on some 30's & 40's mandolins, at least the best I can tell from the pictures. A better picture may tell us more. The difference in spacing would explain the peghead overlay being plugged. whether it is on the original neck or a replaced neck. The lack of center stripe and back overlay has led many to think the neck has been replaced. ONE WAY TO TELL, would be to remove one strip of tuners and if the holes are plugged in the neck wood as seen from the backside (as well as the peghead overlay), then the neck may be original. If there are no plugged holes, then a new neck was made and just the original peghead overlay was plugged and reused. Again, just a guess, but if the neck was broken years ago, and the original tuners were also damaged and couldn't be reused, then that may explain the repair. Like I said earlier, choices for replacement parts were very limited back then, nothing like we have available today for restorations. I think whoever repaired it, did a great job. We also have more knowledge available to us now and can easily research things online. In the past, a repairman might have only been able to base a repair on his own experience.
Jeff and Tobin have covered my thoughts pretty thoroughly. "Original style" replacement tuners are relatively new, the proginals may have simply failed for whatever reason and this was the only thing available. Don't worry too much about it, play it and be a good steward of it, don't subject it to any unnecessary "improvement" and enjoy it, I would.
Timothy F. Lewis
"If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett
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