What do you know about this Kimble mandolin?

[lenf12]

It is absolutely gorgeous in it's own right but as an homage to Butch's 1925 unsigned Loar fern, It is just a knockout!!!

Link to the ad and do go to on to Carter's Vintage website.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/92143#92143

I have no financial interest in this mandolin but I do have fond memories of Butch's beloved F-5 when he played with the Providence Mandolin Orchestra. That was a night to remember since he played the unsigned Loar, a Gilchrist Model 3 (classical model iirc) and my '96 Gibson F-5G (Weber signed) to play "My Last Days On Earth". What a beautiful and perhaps prophetic performance.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Timbofood]

I'm exercising my "Schultz" right.....
"I know nothing!"

[FLATROCK HILL]

What about it is based on Butch's unsigned Loar? Does Will do a process akin to MacRostie's 'Voicing' to replicate specific tonal qualities?

It's a nice looking mandolin, but I don't think I'd mistake it for a Loar, signed or unsigned.

Certainly not criticizing in any way; I love Will Kimble's mandolins!

[Willie Poole]

I keep hearing and reading about an "Unsigned Loar"...If it isn`t signed or approved by the man how can it be considered a Loar?

I understand that some labels do fall out of mandolins and if that's what they mean how does anyone know that it indeed did have a signed label to start with?

[FLATROCK HILL]

Willie,
I believe the term "Unsigned Loar" refers to F5s that were sitting there, all ready to be inspected and signed, and likely would have been signed had Mr. Loar not parted company with Gibson.

[sgarrity]

Exactly. There are about 6 of them out there. I think 2-3 were varnish and the others lacquer. A few have flowerpots and the rest have ferns.

[lenf12]

Thanks Shaun, what would this one be, a fern or a flowerpot? I'd say fern (sorta)...



Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[sgarrity]

I should clarify that my post was talking about the "Unsigned Loars."

[FLATROCK HILL]

Butch's "unsigned Loar" was top-bound with the Flower Pot and traditional fingerboard extension. I don't think there was a pick-guard on it while Butch owned it. Other than the the top-bound thing, I don't see much visual resemblance between the two.

Still wondering if anyone knows if this Kimble is 'voiced' like Butch's mandolin, or what it is that makes it 'based' on it.?.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Thanks Shaun, what would this one be, a fern or a flowerpot? I'd say fern (sorta)...



Len B.
Clearwater, FL

Now I get it...December, 1924...

It's the 'Charlie Brown Christmas Tree'.

[Will Kimble]

Hey "Flatrock Hill" - whoever that is,

Did you know Butch Baldassari?
Did you ever play Butch's mandolin?
Are you suggesting that I didn't know Butch or wasn't familiar with his mandolin?

Butch was my friend and I still miss him. He was excited about the signature model mandolins but things didn't work out the way we had hoped. Please show some respect.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Will - Forgive me for saying so,but i don't think that anybody was being disrespectful to Butch Baldassari,or yourself as a builder.
I don't think that there's a single Cafe member,including myself,who has anything but the very highest regard for Butch as a mandolin player & respect for him as a person,& he's missed by all of us.
Re.the Kimble mandolin in question - as you're aware,there have been many mandolins built ''based on'' one famous mandolin or another,but realistically,none of us have a clue as to just what aspects of 'whichever' mandolin were the ''basis'' for the new ones. I've always understood that if you don't know,then ask. In this case it may be that the question's got a bit 'tangled up' somewhere down the line,but i haven't seen any signs of disrespect in Flatrock Hill's posts.
Feel free to tell me to 'butt out',but maybe some clarification regarding the mandolin in question would help us all understand the mandolin & Butch's input in the build. That would be of interest to all of us & it's much better than all of us playing guessing games,
Regards - Ivan

[FLATROCK HILL]

What about it is based on Butch's unsigned Loar? Does Will do a process akin to MacRostie's 'Voicing' to replicate specific tonal qualities?

It's a nice looking mandolin, but I don't think I'd mistake it for a Loar, signed or unsigned.

Certainly not criticizing in any way; I love Will Kimble's mandolins!

Hey "Flatrock Hill" - whoever that is,

Did you know Butch Baldassari?
Did you ever play Butch's mandolin?
Are you suggesting that I didn't know Butch or wasn't familiar with his mandolin?

Butch was my friend and I still miss him. He was excited about the signature model mandolins but things didn't work out the way we had hoped. Please show some respect.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

Hi Will,

As you can see by my first post, I have nothing but the highest regard for your work. My questions re this mandolin were (I thought) directly in line with the intent of the original post. I certainly didn't mean to show any disrespect toward you, or your creation.

As long as you've chimed in here though, I'm still curious. Is the (subject) mandolin intended to mimic the Baldassari Loar in tone?
The Carter Vintage ad claims that it is "Based" on that Loar. With all due respect, your mandolin is a beauty, but I see no phyiscal/visual evidence of any resemblance to #81268.

And no, I did not know Butch Baldassari. I have met and spoken to you at length however.
PM to follow.

Clark

[Timbofood]

I don't see any disrespect, it's a fairly straightforward question. Gee, lighten up.
I little far flung but one could truthfully say that all the F-5 "Wannabes" are based on Gibson/Loar designs, granted, many not very well but painting with a very broad stroke. And Mr. Kimble, I am NOT placing you in that category. So, don't get mad about it. I think Clark simply wants to know if it's sound is based on the aforementioned instrument.

[Will Kimble]

Butch had a beautifully expressive tremolo, and he used a very distinctive technique to execute it. He would lift his arm, bend his wrist and plant his pinky and ring finger on the pickguard. For this reason he had pickguards on all of his mandolins. If my memory is correct - it has been a long time - his '25 had an abbreviated bound tortoise pickguard that Charlie Derrington had made for him with one pin into the side of the fingerboard and a side bracket.

But Flatrock Hill contends that "I don't think there was a pick-guard on it while Butch owned it" and challenges me to explain what was done to make this mandolin "based" on Butch's '25? Similar questions about the flowerpot and fingerboard extension show the same lack of knowledge - or respect - and to top it off you are making fun of the inlay?

Perhaps I will readdress this thread once I have cooled down a bit. Of course it is reasonable to have questions about what went into these mandolins, that is not the issue.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

[Timbofood]

I'm not so sure "challenges" is the right word, from the way I read it he was pretty simply asking a question.
Pretty simple question but, since you're here I will ask my own, as clearly and, non offensively, as possible.

What are the factors you based this on? Graduation, voicing, orientation of wood grain?

[FLATROCK HILL]

Butch had a beautifully expressive tremolo, and he used a very distinctive technique to execute it. He would lift his arm, bend his wrist and plant his pinky and ring finger on the pickguard. For this reason he had pickguards on all of his mandolins. If my memory is correct - it has been a long time - his '25 had an abbreviated bound tortoise pickguard that Charlie Derrington had made for him with one pin into the side of the fingerboard and a side bracket.

But Flatrock Hill contends that "I don't think there was a pick-guard on it while Butch owned it" and challenges me to explain what was done to make this mandolin "based" on Butch's '25? Similar questions about the flowerpot and fingerboard extension show the same lack of knowledge - or respect - and to top it off you are making fun of the inlay?

Perhaps I will readdress this thread once I have cooled down a bit. Of course it is reasonable to have questions about what went into these mandolins, that is not the issue.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

Once again Will, sorry for anything I said that came off as offensive. I assure you I meant none.

As for the pickguard situation, I'm sure you know volumes more than I do or ever will. I've only seen photos and videos of Butch playing an old Gibson. Some of them, I am sure show Mr Baldassari's 1925 Gibson mandolin that some would call an 'Unsigned Loar'. In ome of them (videos, photos), I cannot say for sure just what particular Gibson F5 is shown.

Of the pictures/videos I personally have seen, there is no pickguard present. His instruction videos (maybe not all of them, I don't know) for example, feature him playing (IIRC) an old Gibson F5 without a pickguard. Of course that does not mean he never had one. I did not mean to suggest any such thing. Of course I have seen your friend Butch play mandolins with pickguards. Just not the 'unsigned Loar' in question. I have no doubt that he had an abbreviated pickguard installed, just as you say.

And to further clarify, I only pointed that out because I was curious to know, upon what particlar features you based this tribute mandolin.

I did send you a Private Message. I hope it explaines a few private matters better than I can 'splain on this public forum. I appreciate your discretion. No offense intended.

Clark

PS. If after all this wordy interaction, you are still convinced that I'm a disrespectul, drooling cretin, please don't pass your opinion on to Mr. Duff. To the best of my knowledge, at this point he still considers me an acceptable Humanoid, although sometimes one who consumes a few too many hops/barley-based beverages.

[Will Kimble]

Scott tells me I can be a little cranky, I guess this is one of those times. Apology accepted. Please consider how I might feel reading the following: "With all due respect, your mandolin is a beauty, but I see no phyiscal/visual evidence of any resemblance to #81268."

My intent with the BB-25 models was to build a mandolin that Butch would be able to perform and record with. I was not trying to build a bench copy and never claimed as much. I didn't do anything different in the construction as I was already pretty much trying to make everything sound like Butch's mandolin anyway.

I did carefully copy many of the specs of Butch's '25. For instance, he insisted on a flat fingerboard with banjo fret wire. It was quite narrow at the nut and the extension had been cut off. Pretty sure he told me "If it was good enough for Sam Bush, its good enough for me." The fingerboard on my BB-25 models have the same # of frets - 22 I believe - but I took liberties by cleaning up the shape.

As for the flowerpot - Butch had close friends at Gibson, as do I. Gibson made it clear that they didn't want anybody using the flowerpot. We both planned for these mandolins to be used prominently and neither of us wanted to be in a situation where we had to explain ourselves to Gibson. I was lucky to get Tom Ellis to design an inlay for me, the first one had a "25" in it but I wasn't satisfied and ended up simplifying the design. This inlay was meant to be for BB-25 models only, but I really grew to like it and after some time passed I decided to continue using it. It is now my preferred inlay and I use it a lot. By the way, what is unusual about Butch's mandolin is that the headstock is top bound with a flowerpot - most flowerpots are side bound or plain ivoroid, and ferns are typically top bound. Knowing this, you might recognize that I used a top bound headstock with an inlay that has a similar visual weight to a flowerpot - much more open than a fern.

I also traced the f-hole from Butch's mandolin and ran a Hacklinger over the top & back. There are probably more stories and details, but this is all I can remember at the moment. We originally intended to build 12 of these, but I ran out of steam once Butch got sick. They were never meant to be built posthumously, I think I may have built a total of 6 and have no intentions of building any more.

Hope this answers most of the questions.

Will Kimble
www.kimblemandolins.com

[AlanN]

I did carefully copy many of the specs of Butch's '25. For instance, he insisted on a flat fingerboard with banjo fret wire. It was quite narrow at the nut and the extension had been cut off. Pretty sure he told me "If it was good enough for Sam Bush, its good enough for me." The fingerboard on my BB-25 models have the same # of frets - 22 I believe - but I took liberties by cleaning up the shape.

I just reviewed some video I shot in 1994 (for the first time in many years) of BB at his World Of Mandolin seminar he conducted in Nashville. Some nice close-ups of his unsigned - what a beauty - in action, and of Ronnie M on his famous Gilchrist. Butch did indeed have an abbreviated p/g and by then, he had lopped off the florida.

I too miss him.

Will, if you don't mind, send me an email, to mandof5f@gmail.com

[JFDilmando]

Chill out Kimble... you are one of our leading builders, and creators of wonderful instruments. My hat is off to you for your wonderful work....

Your kind offering of your approach to this instrument was what as originally desired by Cafe member, and your last post would have been the gracious response long ago. But I am glad that you accepted an apology that, from my perspective, should have never been needed, or offered.... both sides of this silly, super sensitive reaction are fine with it .... good on ya.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Will Kimble - ".... I was lucky to get Tom Ellis to design an inlay for me,". Ah !, that explains it,it was one of Tom's 'squiggles'. I have one on my Ellis "A" style - ''different but tasteful''. Many thanks indeed for the information on the mandolin build,
Ivan

[lenf12]

My question could not be answered by anyone more knowledgeable than the builder himself. Thanks Will!!

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Willie Poole]

That also answers my question about "Unsigned Loars" But also in 1925 there were many Gibson mandolins built and were referred to as "Ferns", I wonder if they were built by the same crew(s) that built the Loars? If so they are probably just as nice as the Loars but since Lloyd had left the company they couldn`t be called Loars...Gets confusing to a point since Loar had left the company before inspecting those 1925 unsigned Loars...OH WELL, NO BIG DEAL BECAUSE i WILL NEVER OWN ONE...

Willie

[Ivan Kelsall]

Further to Willie's question - Were the mandolins that Lloyd Loar signed the ones that we now call the 'Master Models' ?. Did he ever sign any Gibson 'Ferns' ?. I've read that Lloyd's work was mainly in re-designing & improving the Gibson mandolins,but were they called 'Master Models' before his input or only afterwards,& were the Ferns also part of the re-designed line ?,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

Further to Willie's question - Were the mandolins that Lloyd Loar signed the ones that we now call the 'Master Models' ?. Did he ever sign any Gibson 'Ferns' ?

Yes.

http://www.folkwaymusic.com/museum/g...-f5-fern-0813/

It was not just mandolins, of course... but the 'Master Model' range also included the equally revered L-5 guitar - also designed by Loar, plus a number of mandola's and other instruments.

http://www.prewargibsonl-5.com/maste...ies/4581511002