What makes a rag a rag?

[hatta]

I'm learning the Red Apple Rag. My understanding is that rags involve syncopated rhythm. But it sounds straight to me. Am I listening for the wrong thing?

[ralph johansson]

Many tunes that have "rag" in the title, e.g., Panhandle Rag, are not rags at all. Not even a tune like Beaumont Rag. Harmonically it is what you might expect from the second part of a classical rag, but it repeats that same pattern over and over.

[David L]

Originally, rags had syncopated melodies over regular accompaniment, but like everything, they have evolved. Sometimes the syncopation is "secondary syncopation", meaning syncopation by grouping, not rhythm. (i.e.-groups of three eighth notes in 4/4) Rags also traditionally have fairly fancy chord progressions, so many modern pieces with complex progressions are called rags. "Rag" also implies a medium slow bouncy tempo. Almost every Joplin rag is marked "slow" or "not fast" or something like that. Most rags are also played with straight time, not swing. As ragtime piano evolved, it became faster and swingier, and became Stride piano and jazz.

[DavidKOS]

Also, like the word "blues", after rags became popular, many compositions were labeled as "rag" whether they were or not.

The previous posts were very good; one thing I'd add is that in old New Orleans, the music that was eventually called "jass" or jazz was originally called ragtime or rags by the older musicians. (musicianers {sic} they called themselves)

The term seems to be used quite loosely!

[Denny Gies]

I thought it was a T shirt that you can't wear any longer and use to wash the car. What am I missing?

[farmerjones]

Almost like the guy that asked the difference between a reel and a hornpipe.
Suitable enough to say if the song/tunes has hornpipe in the title, it's a hornpipe.

All those rag tunes mentioned, one can take the rag out them, if you play the tune (tune's beat) right on the nose.
John Hartford spoke of time being a pocket or an envelope. Anywhere within the pocket you're still playing in time. Push the beat, you get that drive/urgency. Drag the beat you get that draggy/raggy thing. Play it right square on the nose, can sound insipid.

[jaycat]

There is an interesting theory concerning the reason that the music played by piano players in brothels came to be known as "ragtime" music. But I won't go into it here.

[Fred Keller]

I don't know tons but I've learned a couple things. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it's my understanding that there are 2 kinds: country rags (like most of the fiddle tunes we know and play) and a more "classic" rag. The classic rag usually had 16-bar parts, almost always had 3 or more parts (with one called a Trio), and were played slow. The classic style came first, I believe, with the country rags coming later and going faster.

[JeffD]

One key ingredient would be a particular kind of syncopation.

Take a reel, with its iconic "watermelon watermelon, watermelon watermelon" rhythm. Now connect the center notes in each pair to get - "blueberry pear banana, blueberry pear banana"

Another key ingredient is 3 on 4 syncopation, like one two three one two three one two three one two three one two three ...

And then, as has been mentioned, a trio section that brings everything together.

Of course there are variations, but these are the key ingredients I expect when a tune is called a rag.

[derbex]

It's all fruit salad to me

[David L]

I don't know tons but I've learned a couple things. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it's my understanding that there are 2 kinds: country rags (like most of the fiddle tunes we know and play) and a more "classic" rag. The classic rag usually had 16-bar parts, almost always had 3 or more parts (with one called a Trio), and were played slow. The classic style came first, I believe, with the country rags coming later and going faster.

I wouldn't say that there are two kinds of rags, but ragtime did evolve. Classic rags (Joplin. Turpin, Scott, etc.) came first, circa 1897. They were almost always slow, with several sections. Sometimes trios, sometimes not. By 1920, urban rags had become faster and often used swing time. This became Stride piano,and ultimately contributed to jazz. Rural or country rags were more often played on string instruments instead of piano. They tended to stay slower than stride piano, but not always. They also tended toward less sections and different forms. Both styles started including elements of other styles as they evolved.

[ralph johansson]

I suppose you could say that flashy and superficial tunes like 12th Street Rag and Black&White Rag, or some of Jelly RollMorton's compositions, evolved from classical ragtime, and possibly Beaumont Rag evolved from one section of a rag or was written in imitation of one such section (many fiddle versions incorporate quotes from Black&White). But tunes like Red Apple Rag, Tiger Rag, and Panhandle Rag have absoluely nothing in common with that tradition.

[DavidKOS]

But tunes like Red Apple Rag, Tiger Rag, and Panhandle Rag have absoluely nothing in common with that tradition.

I disagree about "Tiger Rag" - it's a very old New Orleans "jazz" tune - the players called it rags back then - and is very much part of the overall tradition. Plus the tune is in sections with key changes like many piano rags.

There are many marching band ragtime tunes that became trad jazz standards, like "Tiger Rag" - "High Society", "Panama Rag", and tunes like "Maple LeaF Rag" were very common among older jazz players.

[David L]

I suppose you could say that flashy and superficial tunes like 12th Street Rag and Black&White Rag, or some of Jelly RollMorton's compositions, evolved from classical ragtime, and possibly Beaumont Rag evolved from one section of a rag or was written in imitation of one such section (many fiddle versions incorporate quotes from Black&White). But tunes like Red Apple Rag, Tiger Rag, and Panhandle Rag have absoluely nothing in common with that tradition.

"Superficial"?

These tunes show the influence of country music and fiddle tunes on rags. (Or the influence of rags on country music and fiddle tunes.) Yes, they may have continuous eighth or sixteenth notes, but they can still be phrased and accented in syncopated ways.They can all be played in a bouncy ragtime style with syncopation. But, they can also be played faster and more like a reel. One of the other aspects of rags was the melody being faster note values than the accompaniment, as opposed to marches and songs, which had longer notes in the melody. That is certainly true of these pieces.

[ralph johansson]

"Superficial"?

These tunes show the influence of country music and fiddle tunes on rags. (Or the influence of rags on country music and fiddle tunes.) Yes, they may have continuous eighth or sixteenth notes, but they can still be phrased and accented in syncopated ways.They can all be played in a bouncy ragtime style with syncopation. But, they can also be played faster and more like a reel. One of the other aspects of rags was the melody being faster note values than the accompaniment, as opposed to marches and songs, which had longer notes in the melody. That is certainly true of these pieces.

The word I was looking for was "shallow".

These tunes do not show the influence you're talking about. The only thing that sets Red Apple Rag (and, e.g., Cotton Patch Rag)
apart form hundreds of similar fiddle tunes is that they have the word "rag" in the title, by somebody's whim. That fact alone is of no musical or historical significance.

And Panhandle Rag (like Steel Guitar Rag and Cimarron Rag, to quote just a few more tunes associated with Leon McAuliffe) are not notey at all, on the contrary rather songlike, with long notes and rests. Actually, Marle Travis wrote lyrics for Steel Guitar Rag and I'm pretty sure Tex Williams recorded a song version of Panhandle Rag. And, again, the word "rag" in the title does not create some historical connection with the ragtime tradition. (Neither does the word "blues" turn songs like Blue Ridge Mountain Blues or Wabash Blues into blues songs.)

[David L]

The word I was looking for was "shallow".

These tunes do not show the influence you're talking about. The only thing that sets Red Apple Rag (and, e.g., Cotton Patch Rag)
apart form hundreds of similar fiddle tunes is that they have the word "rag" in the title, by somebody's whim. That fact alone is of no musical or historical significance.

"Shallow"?

If the composer names something a "Rag", they may be trying to convey instructions to play the piece in the style of a rag. If that is the case, then the title certainly has "musical significance".

[Fred Keller]

I'm not sure I can think of tunes as shallow or deep. Each one possesses its own magic and that winds up being in the eye of the beholder. Joel Mabus' poem "The Fiddler's Reply" leaps to mind.

Nevertheless it remains true that titles of traditional American tunes often deceive. We receive tunes from tradition called "hornpipes" which bear no relation to the dance from Britain or Ireland; we have a regional tradition of 6/8 tunes in and around Pennsylvania that are called Quadrilles for some reason (the word that reels--4/4--derives from); and so it doesn't surprise me that we have tunes called rags that only peripherally resemble a Scott Joplin composition.

This doesn't really pose a problem or an opportunity for valuing or devaluing. It's what happens when tunes pass orally and I can't help but find it charming and endearing.

[SincereCorgi]

"Shallow"?

If the composer names something a "Rag", they may be trying to convey instructions to play the piece in the style of a rag. If that is the case, then the title certainly has "musical significance".

There's not really a rag 'style' for these fiddle tunes, though, it's just a term that gets applied to tunes that tend to have a lot of syncopated figures and secondary dominants. If a bluegrass band does them, they don't drastically change the rhythm roles of any of the instruments.

I don't know if you can get too strict about what a 'rag' is, and something can be 'ragtime' and not a 'rag'. Ragtime is like the genteel sibling of minstrel shows and coon songs that American music historians can talk about without too much embarrassment.

[tkdboyd]

Not really contributing to the subject but have been getting into Rags of late, and found this site Has mp3 and scores.

[Joel Glassman]

I think the designation "rag" tells you how to play the music. You can choose not to play it that way. Beaumont Rag can be played as a breakdown, but you can play it with the stately shuffling swing feel of ragtime. Western swing and Texas style fiddlers do. Red Apple Rag is part of a tradition which doesn't play it that way. Maybe its because of how it was adapted, by Arthur Smith--an oldtime fiddler whose playing was a transition to Bluegrass.

[ralph johansson]

There certainly is a difference between the way Texas fiddlers and , e.g., Bluegrass guitarists, approach Beaumont Rag. But the difference is not just in the the phrasing of a given melody but in the melody itself. Bluegrassers will use long runs of eighth notes, Texas fiddlers will use a lot more varied note values. I would call BR a "folk rag", because of its relatively simple, repeated, harmonic form. Another example would be Lone Star Rag that uses some typical ragtime rhythmic figures, in two sections, one base on a simple I-IV-V form, the other using a circle of fifths form that some people tend to associate with ragtime (although I don't know of a single classical example!)

But, really, if the composer intends that his work be played "like a rag" he will compose a rag. There's absolutely no way you can impose a ragtime feel on a fiddle tune with long series of eighth notes. You'd have to recompose it to exploit the typical rhythmic figures of ragitme, such as tying the 4th and 5th eighth note. And I don't think the result would be very convincing given its simple harmonic form.

And, again, here a relots and lots of tunes with "rag" in the title where the word "rag" gives no indication whatever taht the tune be played "like a rag", because it's impossible. To the long list above I could add Fat Boy Rag by Lester Barnard, a simple riff tune with improvised blues choruses and Texas Playboy Rag (by Noel Boggs, I suppose) which is very songlike, a variation on the first part of San Antonio Rose. And outside Western Swing the first tune that comes to my mind is Johnson Rag, a riff tune with a Honeysuckle Rose bridge.

[farmerjones]

There you go: When is a tune still the same tune, and when is it to be considered something else?
Example - Red Apple Rag could be played like a Texas style fiddle contest tune, or slow it way down to a rag time, but would it still be the same tune? Slow the Woody Woodpecker theme down and you have the Theme to Star Wars. I've got a 78rmp record titled Doodletown Piper. Every jam I attend calls it Year of Jubilo. Seems like musicians live for the exception to the rule. Like the use of D major chord in the key of C.

[JeffD]

There's absolutely no way you can impose a ragtime feel on a fiddle tune with long series of eighth notes..

Yes I agree.

Take for example Poppy Leaf Rag. Its not a rag, its a hornpipe. Apple apple / apple / apple // apple apple / apple apple //

I don't care what the title is.

[SincereCorgi]

But, really, if the composer intends that his work be played "like a rag" he will compose a rag. There's absolutely no way you can impose a ragtime feel on a fiddle tune with long series of eighth notes. You'd have to recompose it to exploit the typical rhythmic figures of ragitme, such as tying the 4th and 5th eighth note. And I don't think the result would be very convincing given its simple harmonic form.

I agree, the melody of a tune like Billy in the Lowground (thinking of the A part) would need to be reworked to make it sound like a stereotypical rag. Of course, historically, that's exactly that's a lot of what early ragtime was- recomposing march and quadrille tunes to dial up the syncopation.

[Paul Kotapish]

Here's a pretty good overview of the components and characteristics of the classic ragtime repertoire: http://www.perfessorbill.com/ragtime1.shtml

The moniker "rag" is attached a whole bunch of tunes that meet only a few of those criteria, but I reckon that syncopated phrasing is the common element. Whether or not a syncopated 32-bar fiddle tune should or should not be called a rag is the stuff upon which forum threads are built.