Fado Guitar conversion??

[Oliver R]

Hello,
Being a massive Planxty fan and the playing of Andy Irvine during this period I have always hankered after a fado guitar such as he played during this period...

I see here..http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_fad...r_standard.htm
that they have just that.

Andy lost two strings and played it like a Bouzouki which is what I would aim to do..
Scale length is 442, any string recommendations?
Cheers
Oliver

[acousticphd]

Here is a post from some months back discussing the Fado and Andy Irvine, which may be of interest:http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...hlight=planxty

And I notice several other threads touching upon Planxty/bouzoukis.

I'm a fairly recent new fan of the old Planxty and Andy Irvine. In the photos and videos I have seen, where the fingerboard of his Fado is clearly visible, he has it strung with 8 strings (4 courses), spaced out fairly widely across the fingerboard. Also, I have never seen him playing the Fado without capoing up at least a few frets. I don't know how he tuned it (someone here is sure to know), but its range, as he played it, seemed to be that of a mandolin/mandola hybrid. Perhaps an alternative to capoing high up the neck of a bouzouki, which he also often does.

With a scale of ~17", the number of courses (sounds like 5) and the choice of tuning(s) would factor in to the string choice. What would be the likely tuning?

[Oliver R]

I would like to get GDAD to be honest but I might need to go lower and capo up...perhaps that's what AI does.
Interesting articles by the way.

[acousticphd]

Here is another older thread on Fado tuning variation, in case you did not already turn it up:http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...andolin-tuning

I am surprised at how low this instrument is typically tuned with only a 17.5" scale - with the lowest course at C or D below the low E on a standard guitar. Using an OM tuning (GDAD) sounds like a challenge but I imagine it is doable with fairly heavy strings. On a 20.5" OM, I use 52, 40, 25, 13 for GDAE. Very much guesswork, but maybe something in the ballpark of 56, 44, 26, 14 ?

[Oliver R]

Hmmm...just had a look on Fylde guitars website and he does a mandola that has a 422 scale length and he recommends :-
GDAE 52 52 36 36 24 24 13 13..so yes , do-able I think!

[ollaimh]

i used to play quite a bit of portuguese guitar. i used the traditional lisboa fado tunning for playing with the local portuguese, and i used a cgcgcg quite high tension tuning for celtic. the later was a string buster, using standard portuguese strings, so i did go for lighter strings on the high end when they broke. i used to think a dadada tuning would be good celtic but i never took the trouble to get the right heavier strings together. on the other hand a dadgad would likely work really cool. the traditional portuguese tuning does allow the chord shapes of dadgad on the top five courses, as if you were playing dadgad without the high d. the portuguese use these chords a lot. the small steps between courses allows a number of traditional tunning variants, and allows a lot of tight chords which are very bright and rhythmic.

andy irvine indeed uses only four courses, he is playing it as a mandola--essentially. of course nowadays irvine and the boys can afford hand made special order instruments, but the old videos have a charm with them making fantastic music on funky instrumennts.

the string loops can be done with a pair of plyers and a nail, did that for years, but the string winders now on ebay for under fifty bucks are great. it takes a little practice to get the optimal length. a hint, don't let the unstrung tuners slip into the tunning box--they are a real head ache to get out. when unstrung i put some tape around them, or small rubber bands.

i still have a small collection of guitarras. one 1913 viera which is mega funky, my favourite, although nothing like the modern sound. italianish mandola sound . very traditional, like the sound of the old port on the tagus slopes. and one between the wars by which is the transitional instrument between the early small body and the later big bodied guitarras. plus one made by tranquillo giannini, the founder of the guitar company. and a modern rose wood one by antonio caravhalo, a maker among the best for sound(not as fancy as the more expensive ones but great sound).

so i like them but i selling a couple some time.

as to the fylde mandola strings, it looks to me like a fifth high course would work, .010s,or .009s so you would have a high pitched cittern. the necks are usually big and strong so they sould hold that tension. maybe even higher with .007s. could be very tinklely sounding. might be nice.

[ollaimh]

ps, if you are going to buy a guitarra, check e bay for a while. once and a while absolutely top quality instruments turn up cheap, much better than thomman. planxty played older style ones, i think irvine had a perriera, which is a better quality older one, and pricier than some old ones. the new style has a much bigger body than that which planxty played, but if you buy one look for an antonio caravahlo, his are outstanding. he makes for acoustomelo at times and also sells directly. his unadorned instruments have great sound and quality of construction. i played a mandola by him when i oporto a few years ago. cost about 600 bucks, and equal sound to many instruments that cost three times that in the americas.

[Oliver R]

Ollaimh, you are very knowledgeable on the subject!
I am thinking about this now...if I used it as a 4 course instrument a'la Irvine I think the spacings would be massive and hard to play.

[ollaimh]

yeah but with that stringing you found you could easily add a fifth course and be spacious but not too spacious. i may try it next time i have to do a re stringing. the fifth course on the high end would be close to the highest on a mandolin--i think. so you would have mandola and mandolin in the same instrument. i would consider tuning down to dadgad with heavier strings as well--good for strumming. however you won't get that distinctive jangly planxty sound with a newer guitarra. they played the transitional instrument with a wider body than pre first world war but not the deep body of modern ones. i believe the one irvine plays in several old videos is a pierrera from between the wars, wider body but not yet quite as wide as a modern one, but not deep like like modern ones. when those come up on ebay they get quite active bidding, i suspect from planxty fans. the last one i saw went for a little under a grand usd.

the really valuable ones from early on are gracios. they will get $2500 easy at auction and $3500 in stores.

because they are somewhat like english guitars there were quite a few imported into england by a few english music stores to sell as cheaper versions. back in the sixties and seventies really nice portuguese guiatrs were really cheap. i'd look on english craigslist and english ebay for one of those, most were between the wars models. i tried to bid on one when i was in england but the seller wouldn't let me bid with a foreign address, even though i offered to pick it up in person. that era was all solid woods.
so that's my take, get an early one. the craftmanship was great back then. there were no tourist models made with wet or cheap woods back then, but check closely for make. there were fakes of early ones made for the tourists. these early and intermediate ones were extremely bright and planxty sounding.

i'll take some pictures of mine if you like--there were a lot of people exploring these early planxty instruments back at the height of the celtic music scare.

if you find one send me a message with pictures if you like--if i know the model i can fill you in.

[ollaimh]

pictures of my 1915 viera lisboa model, 17.5 inch scale, 12. 25 inches wide body.

his is lisboa like irvine's but earlier and smaller body

[ollaimh]

here's the between the wars tiexerra, sort of a coimbra style but it was probably made in oporto-his family still lives in oporto. this is a lot like irvine's with an inch longer scale.(the coimbras have flat headstock and the lisboas have the violin headstock) recently set up and restrung. the older one just had frett work and a little cleaning of the tuners--ready for restringing

it's an 18.25 inch scale and 14.25 inches wide on the body. shallower than the modern instruments

[ollaimh]

those are what irvine was playing--sort of. his was a piererra, from lisboa i think made between the wars, wider body than pre first world war, still more shallow body than the modern ones.

[Oliver R]

Lovely old instruments,

[lucho]

I do play a coimbra fado guitar with a longer 47 cm SL, so for me is easier to try just a modified standard portuguese tuning that is close to the older spanish lute tuning I do play often. aa gg dd aa EE BB.... Indeed it works easily. I believe that this longer scale length is easy for mandola standard tuning too. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/al...hmentid=141470

[ollaimh]

i might re string one of these with your suggested/found stringing idea. with that fifth course. i have a thing for old folk instruments. they are just so cool, and usually grew out of a tradition where musicians have found how to get the most out of what they have. so portuguese guitars, greek instruments etc, are really fantastic, as long as you don't try to make them guitars. that was andy irvine's genius, and of they guys he played with. they used to funkier sound for advantage.