Loar-signed mandolin banjo?

[MikeEdgerton]

I bet the signature is that of 'J. B. Rogers Jr', the company that supplied many manufacturers with premade banjo and drum heads. Usually this is rather faint and thus could be deciphered as belonging to just about anybody, especially in hazy hindsight. So I second Jim Garber's response, above.

See post 12 above

[Tobin]

Learned sirs/madams, you seem to not be seeing the elephant in the room. It's a banjolin. It doesn't matter who's signed it, it will still sound like shinola, or that other stuff.

Don't hold back, man. Tell us how you really feel!

[Jeff Mando]

All it takes is a celebrity to start playing one on tv and everybody will be wanting one....

like Dwayne Johnson playing ukulele....

[journeybear]

From the Siminoff website:

Lloyd’s work on banjos was equally astute.

OK, I'm still shaking my head ... only a bit more rapidly. The sheer volume and detail of information about all manner of string instruments provided by the membership here is staggering. It now seems much more possible than I'd imagined that Loar might have dabbled in banjolins, and this item could indeed be worth its weight in pennies, or even nickels. I am coming around to anticipating the discovery of substantiated evidence of Loar lending his genius to such efforts with both dread and glee.

It may be worth noting that I have owned three of these devices over the years, though none of them a Gibson. The first, a Vega Little Wonder, was purchased from friend's sister for half a C-note in the mid-80s for the purpose of adding variety to the sound of a jug band. I was fond of calling it "an instrument utterly devoid of subtlety." What it lacked in tone it more than made up for in volume.

[Petrus]

Mandolin Banjo (MB) is the term used most frequently here on the Cafe and also in Gibson historical catalog i.d.s for the instrument pictured in the ebay offering- 4 pairs of strings in mandolin tuning, banjo head, neck joining the head at 12th or 10th fret. Banjo Mandolin is used by some folks interchangeably w/Mandolin Banjo, despite Gibson history and custom here. Some manufacturers have used this and other different terms to describe their instruments in this category. Vega and Orpheum also made frequently seen instruments in this category.

But nobody ever came from Alabama with no "mandolin banjo" / "banjo mandolin" on their knee.

[Timbofood]

Good to see the recollection of the "Ball bearing" tone rings design mentioned! As far as I knew that was pretty much all the esteemed Mr. Loar did to try to remove the shinola aspect of the mysterious "quality" of banjo tone.
Apologies to all the banjo players out there, just hackin' on you.
Nice new picture JB it rather reminds me of this

[WW52]

Regarding mandolin banjos, I don't understand why some folks are dissin' them so much. The way I see it, a mandolin banjo is the most versatile of all banjos --you can re-neck them easily enough and covert them to a 5-string, tenor, or plectrum banjo, not to mention a banjo uke or banjo guitar, and with or without a resonator!

Seriously, though, I like them and have enjoyed playing mandolin banjos I've had. A decent one can sound quite good if set up properly.

[Ken Waltham]

Mandolin banjos certainly had their place back in the day, and Loar certainly did work on, improve, and play banjos. I don't think, however, that he signed this particular one. As stated, it is probably the skin manufacturer.
Unless, it was a personal item, marked to show ownership.

[Tobin]

I owned a mando-banjo a few years back. It looked like somebody's weekend project. Very crude, high action, poor intonation, basically everything you could think of that would make it undesirable. It sort of soured me on the whole idea, and I ended up giving it away to a guy who wanted to hang it on the wall of his saloon. Wall decoration was the best use for that hunk of junk, and the only thing that kept it out of the dumpster.

But I do remain hopeful that one day I might find another one that's playable, and quality-made. I'm just not sure what I'd do with it. I don't play ragtime or jazz or any of the other genres where these things seemed to find a place in the past.

WW52, what kind of music or role do you find them useful for?

[Timbofood]

I have a 1919 Gibson MB which my wife's grandfather made for his wife, I need to give it some TLC but, I agree with you Tobin, don't quite know what to play on it! I will get it squared away and start exploring it's intricacies, one of these days.

Unfortunately, it was "restored" about a year before my wife and I met! The job was done by the factory and the original FB was lost and, I believe the peghead overlay may have gone the way of the FB. My wife recalls that the design is not what her Grandfather had done. Sad but, not much to be done, no pictures of the "before".

[Mandoplumb]

I have a 1919 Gibson MB which my wife's grandfather made for his wife, I need to give it some TLC but, I agree with you Tobin, don't quite know what to play on it! I will get it squared away and start exploring it's intricacies, one of these days.
Unfortunately, it was "restored" about a year before my wife and I met! The job was done by the factory and the original FB was lost and, I believe the peghead overlay may have gone the way of the FB. My wife recalls that the design is not what her Grandfather had done. Sad but, not much to be done, no pictures of the "before".

I don't understand, did you wife's grandfather work at Gibson?

[Timbofood]

Yes, yes he did.
He was there until about '21 or '22
Two brothers, John Fred and Fred John Miller. I never got the chance to meet either or their children, sadly, grandchildren with no clear first hand knowledge of their positions with the company are the end of that too.

[Jeff Mando]

Ebay listing ended early by the seller because of an error in the listing.

[WW52]

I owned a mando-banjo a few years back. It looked like somebody's weekend project. Very crude, high action, poor intonation, basically everything you could think of that would make it undesirable. It sort of soured me on the whole idea, and I ended up giving it away to a guy who wanted to hang it on the wall of his saloon. Wall decoration was the best use for that hunk of junk, and the only thing that kept it out of the dumpster.

But I do remain hopeful that one day I might find another one that's playable, and quality-made. I'm just not sure what I'd do with it. I don't play ragtime or jazz or any of the other genres where these things seemed to find a place in the past.

WW52, what kind of music or role do you find them useful for?

Mostly I just played OT fiddle tunes on them at home and generally thought of them as a novelty. They make for a nice variation in sound if inserted briefly into a set of tunes when playing for a dance, but I wouldn't want to overdo it. Since they can produce some really awful overtones, it's essential to stuff a sock or rag up under the dowel stick to sweeten them up and also adjust the tension on the head so's it's not to tight.

Finding a decent one is the hard thing and there are plenty of horrific ones out there. I'm under the impression that most people who've experienced them think that the marriage of a mandolin neck to a banjo pot was a huge mistake. That's probably right, but they do look cool and can be fun to tinker with. I think most of the decent ones with desirable tone rings have been converted to 5-strings. I once converted one I had to a fretless 5-string.

A lot of them tuly are a hunk of junk.

[Bob Bass]

Hi Timbofood-

That's a nice picture of the family MB, and it's still a pretty good looking instrument, even w/the factory tinkering. good to hear the back-story, too.

and I noticed the neck joint to the head at the 14th fret.....I guess I need to keep paying good attention when these pictures float by...

[jaycat]

Timmy, that is very cool, both the instrument and the family history. Not sure about that pickguard though, wonder if it might look better gone.

If you do decide to restore it . . .

"Vivian Rutledge: What will your first step be?

Philip Marlowe: The usual one."

[Timbofood]

The pick guard is original to the instrument so, it will stay but I do know what you mean.
If there were any photos of it in its original dress, I might be more inclined to return it to is original splendor but, since they are non existent I will just get the set up addressed see if I can find some "trap door" hardware which the company did not repair, oddly enough. It's a coordinator rod set up again, kind of interesting, I didn't realize that was that old a design concept.


Mrs. Rutledge- "Why, I didn't know there was one!"

Marlowe-"Yes, it's on page twelve of "How to be a detective in ten easy lessons." And your father offered me a drink."

[allenhopkins]

1. As I understand it, Lloyd Loar was involved in many aspects of development of Gibson's "Master" models, including the Mastertone banjos. I own a "ball-bearing" GB-3 guitar banjo (six-string), for which I've had an RB-3 five-string neck made. Dates from the so-called "Loar era." The ball-bearing banjos, which were the first to be labeled "Mastertone," were initially issued in 1925, when Loar had left Gibson, and were only made for a couple years, being replaced by the raised-head type. Therefore, Loar would not have signed any Mastertone banjo labels -- or the underside of the head -- as a certification of inspection.

2. Images with the eBay listing have apparently been taken down; does anyone know what "MB" model was being sold?

3. There's a pretty universal disdain for the mandolin-banjo here on the Cafe, which perhaps is understandable, but also a bit unfair. In the right hands, the instrument is capable of contributing to several genres of music. I've posted a link to some Celtic tunes by my band Innisfree, with Mark Deprez playing a large-bodied mandolin-banjo (which he built himself). If you have a chance, listen and see if you don't agree the instrument's well-suited for this style, not overly raucous or harsh -- and well-played by Mark:

Irish Washerwoman/Swallowtail Jig/Saddle the Pony

PS: I'm playing a Sobell mandola; other musicians are Kathleen Cappon on 12-string guitar, Barbara Jablonski on hammered dulcimer.

[Jeff Mando]

2. Images with the eBay listing have apparently been taken down; does anyone know what "MB" model was being sold?

If you click the link above and then click to the right of the title where it says "see original listing", then you can view the pictures.

[Bob Bass]

Hi Allen-

very nicely played by everyone!

thanks for posting the medley!

Bob

[Timbofood]

Allen, you and I are mostly on the same page with respect to instruments generally less "appreciated" than the norm. Frankly, I wish "norm" would lighten up, even just a little bit.
From what I gather, the MB I have has made several people do the "happy" dance when they see the bloomin' case! I am totally on board with the realization that this style of instrument is really more narrowly scoped with respect to genre of music played. Disdain? Sure, choose what you play on one, "Rawhide" may not be the best application. A ragtime piece? You bet! The mandolin banjo is. Let's face it, not quite the best of either but, it can still be enjoyed! I think I have to just get on it and start using this little wonder! Apologies to all the Vega fans!
As for fun, funky, banjo family pals...I want a Vega banjaurine! Something like a sixteen inch scale(?) I had a friend who owned one, it was really fun!

[f5loar]

That's a good FON for a 1927 MB-2 and that's exactly what it looks like. No Mr. Loar did not sign any banjos with his famous label. And yes, he was long gone when this mandolin-banjo was being built. I'm surprised this seller even knew Loar had anything to do with the 20's banjos. Signed inside? If Loar had signed it the seller would show that detailed photo. I don't buy the crap he was too lazy to take the back off again. Something smells here and it's not just the high price.

[WW52]

3. There's a pretty universal disdain for the mandolin-banjo here on the Cafe, which perhaps is understandable, but also a bit unfair. In the right hands, the instrument is capable of contributing to several genres of music. I've posted a link to some Celtic tunes by my band Innisfree, with Mark Deprez playing a large-bodied mandolin-banjo (which he built himself). If you have a chance, listen and see if you don't agree the instrument's well-suited for this style, not overly raucous or harsh -- and well-played by Mark:

Irish Washerwoman/Swallowtail Jig/Saddle the Pony

Allen... Yes, that mandolin banjo does sound nice and works really well there. A very well done set.

[journeybear]

Don't hold back, man. Tell us how you really feel!

I guess I should say how I really feel. Even though I vastly prefer the sound of mandolin to banjolin, I don't really have an ax to grind with these hybrid instruments, nor the musicians who play them, nor the music played on them. Not altogether. I did say, I've owned three of them, and played one - occasionally, not all the time - in a band for years. I have more of a problem with the sound of cheap instruments, which can be really painful to my ears, even more so if they are loud. That Little Wonder was one such - as I said, utterly devoid of subtlety. Subtlety wasn't really being called for in the songs in which I was playing it, so this point was really moot.

I did eventually trade it for a much older instrument with a smaller body and skin head, which produced a kinder, gentler, sweeter sound. This was a vast improvement, and I would probably still be playing it today - could have used it in the skiffle band - if it weren't for the fact that when the skin broke and needed to be replaced, my luthier said it needed so much work on the warped neck and some other issues that it would cost $200-300. This was more than I was interested in paying, particularly since I was no longer in the jug band, so I told him I'd think about it and left it with him meanwhile. It may still be in his shop's basement decades later. I picked up a new inexpensive one early this year to use in the skiffle band, but it needed some set-up work to be playable, mainly where intonation is concerned. The band hit the skids not long after, so it was not the best instrument purchase of my career.

Now, I could have said all or some of that earlier, but you know what? There's not a whole lot of funny in it. The instrument that started this discussion and the circumstances thereunto appertaining seemed to call for some humor, so that's the direction I took. If I ruffled anyone's feathers in the process, I apologize, though not whole-heartedly. I'm still not crazy about these babies, and even though I admit some of my attitude toward them has been affected by my encounters with inexpensive examples and my own capabilities regarding playing them, this is probably not going to change much. Nor should the attitude of anyone reading this. Mine is but one small voice in a dithering din of opinions being bandied about, so what does it matter? The twenty minutes I spent composing represents more time spent thinking about banjolins than I have done in unmeasurable time. Take it with several grains of salt; that way it may indeed taste like something.

[Timbofood]

I know what you mean JB. Subtle, they ain't. Interesting they may well be.
Proper seasoning improves most things.
Merry Christmas JB