Which mandolin for Calace?

[minuteman]

Hello Mr. Timmerman,

I've concluded that the larger scale of my Sam Bush (1 & 3/16 nut, wider fretboard, string spacing, course spacing, etc.) combined with my "bluegrass" string gauge and action is making it very difficult to even practice the Preludes (currently working on II, XI, and XV).

Just wanted to say that I had the same problem to an extent. I learned mandolin from the older bluegrass pickers in my family and ended up with a Breedlove KO. Huge frets, wide nut and neck, long scale. Then I was introduced to Calace, Gioviale and the like. Now I've got girly hands and fingers also which compounded the problem. I could never make the stretches for some Duo Styles, and my fingers kept landing in the wrong place for the highs.

Then one year the wife bought me an old Suzuki bowlback (No.45) as a gift and there it was. The sound and the feel I was looking for. Smaller frets, thinner neck, shorter scale, vibrant sound and no plunk, etc. The Neapolitan style mandolin was built for this style of music and in my opinion is the only thing for it. I was also surprised at how the shape of the bowl aids in dropping the left hand where it needs to be.

Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.

[Jordan Ramsey]

Thanks, you all! I think I am going to get it, I've been staring at that ad all day. Definitely feeling some of that old excitement and obsession that I had when I first started playing bluegrass mandolin at age 20. I think the size difference will immediately aid in my ability to practice this material. Also, I'm assuming that a name brand will hold it's value well when I decide to upgrade.

Already thinking about logistics... I'm fairly round in the front, so I believe I'll be an upright sitter, mandolin on my right leg on a footstool player, but I really won't know until I get the thing in my hands. I'll definitely need some type of sticky pad to keep it stabilized in that zone. I've been pondering pick and strings also, what little research I've done has led me to Dogal strings and picks as a starting point? Any suggestions for these and other accessories much appreciated.

Thanks again, everyone.

[minuteman]

I use Dogal Calace RW92B strings for mine and love them. As far as picks, I've never tried the Dogal but they are on my list. Currently I use the Clayton Ultem picks in 1.2mm.

If you end up trying the Dogal picks, be sure to let us know an opinion.

[tkdboyd]

That is a great deal on a Calace in the US with those appointments, I think you will do no wrong getting that. Glad it wasn't on Ebay or the classifieds, I might have jumped on that one.

I have a couple of Dogal plectrums, they can get you a sound that is unique to a lighter built mandolin, but I figure you'll want a stiffer pick on that Calace. I could easily be wrong though. The Dogal's work on getting a more traditional sound on one of my over built Suzuki mandolins. Never know until you get it into your hands. Am certainly looking forward to you playing it!

[Beanzy]

I'm using DR Rare mediums (with the hexagonal core) I have used Tomastick, Dogal, and Dulop Elixir in the past, but for cost/ sound the DR ones are my favourite so far. They have a real clang to the sound that only the Dogal Calace strings had until I found these.

I just looked at your YT vid of you playing " Joy Spring" (nice job) and reckon if you keep the left hand position there and relax the right elbow in to your side, then the bowl will position just right under your sternum for your picking hand if you let it go high up and central. With the shorter scale it's important to let it shorten from the right bringing the instrument more central, rather than trying to twist your left arm around or pull your right elbow back (recipe for tension there) The deeper bowl naturally brings the strings out to where the F type would have the sweet spot you normally pick, but at a steeper angle from the body. Once you spend a bit of time getting the feel for it you'll likely find the position of your picking hand and fretting hand are probably able to remain almost as is, just make sure you relax the right elbow in to your side once you are on the shorter instrument, rather than shunting everything to the right as I have seen some people do.

As for the picks etc. You've a good relaxed hold which gives a good tone, so I'd say but start with what you know there, then as you get used to the instrument then experiment using that as your reference. I've taken to making my own & after a good few hundred experiments have come up with my pick shape, it really does become that personal as you get to know the instrument and respond to its feedback.

[LadysSolo]

For sticky pad for your lap go to Lowes (or whatever home improvement store is in your area,) and get some non-slip shelf liner. Works great, and for ~ $6.00 you will have more than you will need for the rest of your life. Have fun!

[margora]

"Just found this on craigslist last night:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/5375359331.html

Sound sample should come tonight, if the sound is OK I'm thinking about pulling the trigger. Guy says the intonation is really good all the way up, but the tone is a little tight / needs to be played. Any thoughts from the experts? Will this be a good interim instrument until I can get myself a worthy concert mandolin?"

This is one of the lower end Calace's. I own an example of this model. It will be satisfactory for its purpose.

[margora]

"For sticky pad for your lap go to Lowes (or whatever home improvement store is in your area,) and get some non-slip shelf liner. Works great, and for ~ $6.00 you will have more than you will need for the rest of your life."

Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal). Much better to get the real thing from Trekel.

[margora]

"The Neapolitan style mandolin was built for this style of music and in my opinion is the only thing for it."

As I pointed out in my posting and have written about in the CMSA Mandolin Journal, there is a long tradition in the US, dating back to WWI, of playing the Calace Preludes on long (by classical standards) scale American carved-back instruments (and Munier and the other Italians). The vast majority of Germans who play this music do so on Seiffert-style instruments with wide fingerboards. I've performed #2 several times on a Collings MT2 with no problems (and have no lh difficulties playing any of the others on the Collings) and sometimes play #2 on a Weber alto mandola with a 17inch scale (to be fair, with modifications to a measure or two where the scale length is indeed, too long). The type of mandolin, strings, pick, etc. is much less important than the proper technique.

[Jim Garber]

I've recently become obsessed with the Calace preludes, specifically the recording and book that Detlef Tewes put out on Edition 49. I realize that if I truly want to work on these I'll need the right tool for the job, but I'm an F5 hound and know absolutely nothing about bowlbacks. Can you all point me in the right direction in terms of what kind of mandolin would be best suited for this material and where on earth to find one? I would guess the obvious answer is a Calace, but I don't think Detlef is playing one and I really love his sound.

It's been an interesting journey from Jordan's original post. Altho I am a fan of the Italian sound — Calace (or other Neapolitan mandolin) with Dogal Calace roundwound strings — this is very different from the German sound that Detlef Tewes gets. I assume that you are aware of that. Nevertheless it is not a bad thing to try a bowlback but, as Mr. Margo notes, not entirely necessary.

As I also noted on post #9, some classical players prefer the Lyon & Healy sound with Thomastik strings. Most of the Lyon & Healy mandolins, especially those made in the later years, have the shorter scales that some classical players prefer. My favorite is my 20s Washburn-labelled L&H pro with a 13 inch scale.

As far as picks go, I would experiment, regardless of what mandolin you end up with. The Dogal picks are (I believe) just tiny pointed celluloid picks. I believe that Bernunzio carries them. I am sure I have a few but they did not impress me or were especially suited to my playing.

I have tried many picks including the Roman/Ranieri style picks which require a much different technique. I generally stick to jazz size picks and play with the pointy end. For some time I used John Pearse jazz picks (Carlo Aonzo was using them and might still) but usually just use the same Bluechip jazz I use for other musics I play.

BTW the Germans, in their general effort for mellow tone prefer a sort of small rubbery pick made (or sold) by Woll. Here is a thread about classical mandolin picks. Here is anther: classical style plectrum. As you can see many players prefer a wide variety with no absolute just sensitivity to tone and playability.

[DavidKOS]

"Just found this on craigslist last night:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/5375359331.html

Sound sample should come tonight, if the sound is OK I'm thinking about pulling the trigger. Guy says the intonation is really good all the way up, but the tone is a little tight / needs to be played. Any thoughts from the experts? Will this be a good interim instrument until I can get myself a worthy concert mandolin?"

You'd have to try it and see what it feels and sounds like.

It's been an interesting journey from Jordan's original post. Altho I am a fan of the Italian sound — Calace (or other Neapolitan mandolin) with Dogal Calace roundwound strings

I wish I could find the section of some classical mandolin book where it is made clear that the old Italian tone was roundwound, not flatwound strings.

I also don't really get the German soft rubber picks.

[Jim Garber]

I wish I could find the section of some classical mandolin book where it is made clear that the old Italian tone was roundwound, not flatwound strings.

I think we just need to follow by example (sorry for sound quality — the best I can find) Aonzo and Orlandi all play with Dogal Calace roundwound carbon steel strings. Carlo plays a modern mandolin made by Gabriele Pandini and Orlandi (I believe) plays one made by Calace:

[Jordan Ramsey]

It's been an interesting journey from Jordan's original post.

It certainly has, I've learned a ton. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. Although I still love the recorded tone of the German instruments, I haven't completely made my mind up on preference. I think both can be incredibly beautiful in the right hands. I did realize that I wanted something sooner rather than later and a smaller scale and budget had to be my two big priorities right now. I ended up pulling the trigger on the low level Calace, it'll be here Thursday. Something that was easy with a decent price to get acclimated with, I look forward to moving up the rungs (and possibly sideways in terms of style and sound) as my skill, ear, and pocketbook grows.

Thanks again for all this invaluable information,

Best,

[DavidKOS]

Welcome to Bowlback Land, home of the original mandolin and mandolin playing styles!

[crisscross]

I also don't really get the German soft rubber picks.

The Wolle pick, that most German mandolin players use, is neither soft nor rubbery. It's quite thick, but even the softer one isn't rubbery.
There's a Wedgie pick that is real soft and rubbery. I tried one once but it was impossible for me to play with it.

[DavidKOS]

The Wolle pick, that most German mandolin players use, is neither soft nor rubbery. It's quite thick, but even the softer one isn't rubbery.
There's a Wedgie pick that is real soft and rubbery. I tried one once but it was impossible for me to play with it.

It sure isn't a stiff Italian style pick, but thanks for the correction.

[vic-victor]

Jordan, please let us know how do you like your new Calace when it comes. Thanks.

[Eugene]

Late to this game, but "aye." I'm curious to know how your quest concludes.

[John Uhrig]

Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal). Much better to get the real thing from Trekel.[/QUOTE]

To Robert.........I can't seem to find this on the Trekel website. Could you post a link to it ?
Thanks John

[margora]

The Trekel non-slip cloth may be found at http://trekel.de/de/zubehor/9473-zup...th35x35cm.html

[Jim Garber]

Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal). Much better to get the real thing from Trekel.

If you are worried about destroying the finish you can also get some chamois leather which will work rather nicely. You don't have to buy it from Germany. After awhile I ended up not using anything and just found a way to hold the mandolin so it does not move while seated. I did find it easier on more demanding pieces to use a guitar foot rest to raise one leg. I go the cheap folding one on Amazon and it works fine.

Also, as far as strings, Dogal Calace RW92B are the dolce or very light strings and are recommended for vintage bowlbacks. When I played a modern Pandini it was strung with the medio strings which are RW92. I would guess that those medium strings would be fine on your modern Calace mandolin. Bernunzio has them here.

[Martin Jonas]

Sooner or later, the home improvement non-shelf liner may damage the finish (the luthier Dave Cohen wrote about this in the CMSA Journal). Much better to get the real thing from Trekel

To Robert.........I can't seem to find this on the Trekel website. Could you post a link to it ?
Thanks John

There may of course be differences depending on the precise formulation of the mandolin varnish, the type of shelf liner and the temperature, but in my personal experience I haven't had any problems with this. I used to have the shelf liner stored inside the case permanently in contact with the bowl for years, without adverse effect, for my Embergher as well as Ceccherini. While I don't do that any more (I now store the shelf liner in the space around the headstock), I'm fairly confident that the much shorter periods of contact between bowl and mat during playing won't unduly endanger the finish.

Martin

[margora]

"There may of course be differences depending on the precise formulation of the mandolin varnish, the type of shelf liner and the temperature, but in my personal experience I haven't had any problems with this."

I have. Dave's article explains why this might happen. I have had no problems since switching to the German product.

[Eugene]

I also use no tractionny substance between me and bowl. It just feels natural now.

[Jordan Ramsey]

Hello All, sorry on the delayed response. Got the Calace around Jan. 1st and immediately decided that it was not the right situation for me. Just got confirmation that it's back home safely. Bottom line, my ear has become accustomed to a voluminous, resonant sound with my current mandolin (which I've played exclusively for almost eight years). Any mid-level instrument (especially a different style) is going to be disappointing to my ears. It only cost me $150 to learn that I'd rather save my money and get something spectacular. Geez, why didn't you all tell me.

The Calace was beautiful, and it was wonderful to have a full day with that shape and size. Definitely takes some getting used to, but I did start to find some comfort. I'm certainly dependent on the sticky pad and an elevated foot when sitting, but also had some success with standing up and holding the instrument to my chest. Overall, I feel like I will be able to adjust when the right instrument comes along. The neck size was very comfortable.

Now that I know I will be playing these pieces on my wide-neck, long-scale F5 for the foreseeable future, I've been really concentrating on trying to relax when stretching and using as little pressure as possible. Also, incorporating more arched wrist (similar to the German players?) on some of the larger stretches. I'm getting really close on XV, I'll post a video when I get it smoothed out.

Thanks,