Which mandolin for Calace?

[DavidKOS]

I also use no tractionny substance between me and bowl. It just feels natural now.

I've never used any of those cloths and have had no issues with holding bowlback mandolins, ouds, Greek bouzoukis, etc.

Hello All, sorry on the delayed response. Got the Calace around Jan. 1st and immediately decided that it was not the right situation for me.

Well, just keep playing the pieces - and keep looking for a bowlback you like.

[Martin Jonas]

I've never used any of those cloths and have had no issues with holding bowlback mandolins, ouds, Greek bouzoukis, etc.

I think your profile picture may explain why -- there are a number of different techniques for holding and playing bowlbacks and this determines whether you need a slip mat. From your picture, it looks like you're holding your forearm parallel with the strings so that your arm touches the rim of the mandolin more or less on the tailpiece. With that hold, there is no rotational torque on the bowl and therefore no need for a slip mat. An alternative technique involves having the forearm at about a 20 to 30 deg angle with the strings so that the arm touches the rim a few centimetres above the tailpiece. That will exert a rotational torque and with a round bowl you either need to press the forearm very hard on the instrument to keep it in place (not recommended as it limits the movement of the arm) or increase the friction between bowl and leg. Neither technique is wrong and both can be found in illustrations in old mandolin methods.

Martin

[DavidKOS]

I think your profile picture may explain why -- there are a number of different techniques for holding and playing bowlbacks and this determines whether you need a slip mat. From your picture, it looks like you're holding your forearm parallel with the strings so that your arm touches the rim of the mandolin more or less on the tailpiece. With that hold, there is no rotational torque on the bowl and therefore no need for a slip mat.

I don't rest my arm on the tailpiece and sometimes the arm is more in the other position you mention. But I've been playing bowlback mandolin since I was 15 or so in 1972 and Greek bouzouki since 1975 or so, and I guess I'm pretty used to holding them even standing (although I have a strap for the bouzouki).

me holding bowlback lutes



oud



baglama saz



dutar



Greek bouzouki



and the only picture of my first bowlback

[Jim Garber]

Well, just keep playing the pieces - and keep looking for a bowlback you like.

I still contend that you may not need a bowlback per se and may get the best tone (and satisfaction) from a shorter-scaled carved mandolin such as a Lyon & Healy or a modern version. That way you may not need to jump through hoops and completely and radically change your posture and playing technique especially when working on the high level of musicianship required for the Calace virtuoso pieces.

[Jordan Ramsey]

I still contend that you may not need a bowlback per se and may get the best tone (and satisfaction) from a shorter-scaled carved mandolin such as a Lyon & Healy or a modern version. That way you may not need to jump through hoops and completely and radically change your posture and playing technique especially when working on the high level of musicianship required for the Calace virtuoso pieces.

Duly noted, Jim. I saw the L&H model B in the classifieds a couple of days ago, would definitely be interested in trying one. My problem is, by the time I pay for shipping to and fro with all these mandolins I want to try, I'm not going to have any money to buy one. Ultimately, I think I'm going to have to luck into the right combination of financial readiness, ease of access, and guaranteed sound quality. Thanks for the input, I'll keep checking in here as it goes along.

[DavidKOS]

I still contend that you may not need a bowlback per se and may get the best tone (and satisfaction) from a shorter-scaled carved mandolin such as a Lyon & Healy or a modern version..

That would work too, of course. I just thought the OP wanted a bowlback. I really like those L and H mandolins, though.

[Jim Garber]

David: I am certainly an advocate for bowlbacks, as I know you are and a few of the inner circle of the Loyal Order of the Bowl here, but I figure he was looking for a sound before a particular instrument. I know quite a few folks who got their bowlbacks and then reverted to carved instruments either because they prefer a certain tone palette or find that the adjustments they have to make to play the bowlbacks are way different from how they play the more customary mandolins.

In addition, an L&H with T-I strings might be fairly close to the German sound he liked in his original post.

[Eugene]

I'm also an advocate for bowlbacks. I simply like the sound and feel in this context. The better vintage American mass-production pieces might be a good place to explore affordably if you have some vintage savvy and can assess playability. I also hear pretty substantial difference between the vintage Calace's (ca. '20s) and their modern production.

Regarding Lyon & Healy archtops (styles A, B, and C), I think they are some of the most elegant (especially the asymmetric A) and comfortable archtop mandolins to have been produced, but do try one before you commit. The sound is different than oval-holed Gibsons, e.g., and might also not be to your liking.

[DavidKOS]

Regarding Lyon & Healy archtops (styles A, B, and C), I think they are some of the most elegant (especially the asymmetric A) and comfortable archtop mandolins to have been produced, but do try one before you commit. The sound is different than oval-holed Gibsons, e.g., and might also not be to your liking.

It's definitely to my liking, and would probably get an L & H before a similar vintage Gibson.

[Jordan Ramsey]

Hey All, I pulled the trigger on this mandolin last night. It should be here next week sometime.



I know it has issues, but I got it for a song. My plan is to put money into it and get it up to prime playing condition, if not fully restored. Based on the pictures, what can you tell me about the possible work that will need to be done. Seller says the crack has been "stabilized". Not sure what that means. The armrest is obviously aftermarket, and appears to be screwed into the top or binding. Something's weird with the nut. The case looks to be in great shape, though (super cool!!!). Here's what the seller said:

Raffaele Calace, (1863 - 1934) was a world famous mandolin virtuoso and mandolin luthier. This instrument is the work of his hands and bears his signature dated 1913 along with the gold seal and has great drive and resonance. It was made in Naples, Italy and although not all original, it is a beautiful and rare instrument. Fortunately the work that it received was professional. The dealers label is from Switzerland. I do not know how it traveled to an estate sale in Aiken, South Carolina. It comes in the original solid wood case.

A thin crack in the soundboard has been stabilized and the original tail décor has been replaced with walnut.

Thanks for any information and advice.

[Beanzy]

I own a later 1922 model and can certainly vouch for the resonance comment. They're a mandolin well worth bringing fully back to par.
The good news about the armrest is that they're the kind of thing you could knock up from a decently thick piece of pick-guard modern faux tortoise material for scratch plates. I also have one which has a softer black plastic armrest the one on my 1922 model has a couple of tapering curved blocks which the armrest is attached to.

You'll get great value out of that. Congratulations on getting it.

[Jordan Ramsey]

For later comparison, still needs some work.

[Tavy]

I know it has issues, but I got it for a song. My plan is to put money into it and get it up to prime playing condition, if not fully restored. Based on the pictures, what can you tell me about the possible work that will need to be done. Seller says the crack has been "stabilized". Not sure what that means. The armrest is obviously aftermarket, and appears to be screwed into the top or binding. Something's weird with the nut. The case looks to be in great shape, though (super cool!!!). Here's what the seller said:



Thanks for any information and advice.

That looks basically OK to me - the arm rest is horrid but can be replaced, no doubt needs a good setup if not an actual refret. I've no idea what "stabilized" means in relation to a crack either - either it's been repaired or it's not - from the photo's looks like it might be all glued up already. Based on a casual look at the photos looks like you found a good one there - let us know how you get on!

[tkdboyd]

For later comparison, still needs some work.

I would play $59.95 Rogue mandolins for the rest of my life if I could play like you!

Congrats on the Calace!

[Martin Jonas]

That looks basically OK to me - the arm rest is horrid but can be replaced, no doubt needs a good setup if not an actual refret. I've no idea what "stabilized" means in relation to a crack either - either it's been repaired or it's not - from the photo's looks like it might be all glued up already. Based on a casual look at the photos looks like you found a good one there - let us know how you get on!

I agree with John that this looks a nice one. I think two aspects will need looking at when you have it in your hands: the nut and the action. The nut is as sketchy as it gets: a piece of wood with eight equally-spaced grooves. A new nut should be fairly easy. The fact that the previous owner was happy with that nut (and that arm rest!) rather undermines any claims for professionalism in previous repair works. None of the photos are very clear on the action, but the side-on shot of the whole mandolin suggests it may be high. If so, some work on the bridge may resolve this if the neck angle is OK (which it seems to be). With this type of bridge, the easiest way of lowering the action is to lower the ledge which supports the bone saddle insert. That way, there is no need to refit the base of the bridge to the soundboard (assuming it's a good fit to start with).

As to strings, while I agree with the sentiment that Dogal Calace are the default choice, I would also consider the Fisoma Consort strings. They have a wound A string which gives better tone consistency across the courses, greater stability in tuning, and (possibly most importantly) intonate better with a non-compensated bridge as on this Calace.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I am not sure where the crack is located— is that the one on the base side of the fretboard on the body? In any case, I agree with Martin and John's assessments. It is very hard to tell from the photos but there may be some slight warpage on the top so make sure your luthier does check all the internal braces.

As far as strings, I still prefer the Dogal Calace roundwounds (RW92b dolce) which can actually be bought here in the US —Bernunzio has them. Fisoma AFAIK are much harder to get here but IMHO not worth the extra cost to ship from Europe. Actually, Jordan, if you do want to try a set of the Fisoma Consort I may have a set I can give you. I have to check my stash.

[Martin Jonas]

Actually, Jordan, if you do want to try a set of the Fisoma Consort I may have a set I can give you. I have to check my stash.

They changed the A strings in the Fisoma Consort set a few years ago. It used to be aluminium flatwounds, which had a problem with the windings coming undone. The new sets have the A strings with the same construction as the D and G: polished bronze roundwounds (similar to the d'Addario flat tops).

I've never used the Calace strings as they're not sold in either the UK or in Germany as far as I can tell, so I don't have Jim's experience of side-by-side comparison.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Martin: it looks like you can get Calace RW92b sets from Thomann in Germany. Schneidermusik also carries lots of Dogal strings but, for some reason no mandolin ones. perhaps they can order them for you if you deal with them for other things.

They would be very different from the Fisoma ad they are carbon steel vs. 80/20 bronze. I like the sweetness and purity of tone of the Calace strings. They also last a long time. When I still had my Pandini (picked out by Carlo Aonzo) it came with medium gauge Calaces and I never strung it with any other for the decade or so i used that as my primary bowlback. As for the vintage bowlbacks I like the dolce Calaces. I strung my Vega with them and it sounded wonderful to my ears. YMMV, of course!

It does look like Big City Strings has Fisoma Consorts but I would make sure to check whether they have them in stock.

[Jordan Ramsey]

Thank you all very much for the information, I'm really excited to see the condition in hand. I'll take it to a local shop for a good once over and new nut. As for strings, I actually ordered the RW92b set from Bernunzio's right after I won the auction. They should beat the mandolin here. Thank you, Jim, for the generous offer to try the Fisomas. I'm going to give the Calaces a go first, but might be interested in experimenting down the road. If the Fisomas have a wound A, would you need a different nut and bridge slot set up? Updates to come upon arrival.

[Martin Jonas]

Thank you, Jim, for the generous offer to try the Fisomas. I'm going to give the Calaces a go first, but might be interested in experimenting down the road. If the Fisomas have a wound A, would you need a different nut and bridge slot set up? Updates to come upon arrival.

You're unlikely to need a different nut: the wound A is 15w which is much the same as the plain A in other sets. As for the bridge, you don't have bridge slots as such with the style of bridge on you Calace. It's a bit like a zero fret: the slots are simply spacers and can (and should) be comfortably wider than the strings. The actual saddle is unslotted and sits on a ledge in front of those spacers. What will be different with the wound A is bridge compensation. With this style of bridge, the saddle is usually straight without any compensation. Using a plain A string is likely to intonate slightly sharp, which is why the A slot is set back a bit on compensated bridges. You don't need compensation with a wound A, so intonation should be slightly better assuming otherwise equally good setup.

There are plenty other options in classical strings, by the way, from makers unknown in the US. Optima used to claim their chromewound strings are the most popular mandolin string in the world, for example, which I have no way of verifying. I have used and like their 80/20 bronze-wounds, though.

Martin

[T.D.Nydn]

What I think is really great is that the first Calace pieces played in this country were on Gibsons....Jim Garber,you are right,,the blue chip jazz is the best pick by far I've ever used right now. I use the Jazz LG 35...the thin one,and it makes my mandolin just sing..

[Jordan Ramsey]

Hey guys, what can you tell me about this Calace mandolin?:



It seems to be the same model as the one I'm getting, and possibly close to the same year based on the front "port holes". I noticed it has more frets and a replacement bridge (with compensated saddle?). Were extra frets added / fretboard changed, or is this a different model? Also, what kind of strings would you guess? They have red wrap around the ends, and seems to have a steel A string. I sent Izumi a facebook message with garbled google translated Japanese asking him about all this equipment. He has not responded. I really love the tone he gets here.

Based on Martin's statement about the bridge, I'm thinking it will it be in my best interest to get a replacement bridge to solve intonation issues? Where would be my best option for parts in this situation?

Thank you all,

[vic-victor]

Congrats on your purchase. It is Calace's most famous "Brevetto 900" model, sometimes called D-hole model. The first one appeared in 1900 and Calace family were making them all through the 1900's up until 1950's. The bulk was produced between 1900-1920 and later models in the same style are available, but not so common, possibly special orders. There were several grades of that model. Yours is an orchestra model. Soloist models had fluted backs. It does make sense to make a replacement compensated bridge as it is improves the sound and intonation.

[Jim Garber]

Izumi has some unusual technique for a classical player notably posting his pinky and some eccentric fingering. He is an excellent player tho and I agree his tone and playing are wonderful.

[Martin Jonas]

Also, what kind of strings would you guess? They have red wrap around the ends, and seems to have a steel A string. I sent Izumi a facebook message with garbled google translated Japanese asking him about all this equipment. He has not responded. I really love the tone he gets here.

Based on Martin's statement about the bridge, I'm thinking it will it be in my best interest to get a replacement bridge to solve intonation issues? Where would be my best option for parts in this situation?

I suspect those may be the Optima chrome strings I mentioned in my previous email -- Optima strings have fabric-wound ends (as do TI, for that matter), and while from the visual these could also be flatwounds of either maker, the tone doesn't sound like flatwounds. Jim: do Calace strings have fabric winding at the ends?

Regarding a compensated replacement bridge, as Victor has said that is indeed an option. Another option is to replace only the bone saddle insert with one that has added compensation. I have done this in the past with a Ceccherini mandolin with similar bridge design: see this old discussion thread. This would also give you the option of switching between plain and wound A strings by swapping out only the bone saddle.

However, in the first instance you may just want to see how the intonation and tone are with the existing bridge and the Calace Dolce strings -- you may find that you are happy with it as it is.

Martin