Tremolo for Irish Trad?

[mikeyes]

I don't see that there is a prohibition against tremolo in Irish music for mandolinists. There are so few (mandolinists, that is) to begin with and you can't hear them in a session (where the majority are) so it is probably a moot point. I think that judicious use adds a lot to the music, especially in a band situation, but it is a limited technique that a lot of payers can't do well.

That being said, there is no reason not to use it and see if it makes your playing more musical. I think that most of the time there are better choices when trying to play a sustained note that works better with the tradition but it has worked for other styles.

There don't seem to be many mandolin police out there and mandolin is in an early phase of development for Irish music (more advanced for Scottish, it seems) with a lot of exciting stuff ahead. Tremolo deserves a try.

[JeffD]

I would wholeheartedly encourage players who are familiar with playing Irish trad to explore the appropriate use of tremolo. You'll need to understand he places where it will work before you try to give yourself any rules though. To quote Quintillian "For what can be more distressing than to be fettered by petty rules, like children who trace the letters of the alphabet which others have first written for them, or, as the Greeks say, insist on keeping the coat their mother gave them". If you've explored the use of tremolo in a genre such as baroque music you'll have a good feel for what might work. Look out for possibilities of using it on the landing notes or maybe longer dotted notes. it can be very effective in a tune with a double long note (think the end of a hornpipe etc) if you use it on the first but not the second. But also don't use it instead of crans and trills etc. Treat it like a strong spice which can make or ruin a dish depending on how it is used.

What a great post. Spot on in every respect. And well said.

[Randi Gormley]

There is a distinction between performance and session -- for performance, especially in March when people expect what they expect -- whatever works is what I've done. I've used tremolo behind a singer, f'rinstance, and I've used it when playing some of the slow O'Carolan pieces. In session, when the expectation of a slow piece is pretty rare, it so seldom comes up that if I drop into tremolo once or twice a year, nobody cares. So, yeah, situational. When you're performing and it's your gig, you can do whatever you want. Chances are the audience doesn't know the difference anyway, they just like to hear the melodies and harmonies (if you do harmonies).

[Dave Hanson]

Find on youTube, ' Se Fath Mo Bhuartha ' by The Dubliners, then you will understand how good a mandolin played tremlo can sound.
But then again Barney McKenna was a very exceptional musician.

Dave H

[Bertram Henze]

I think you're missing the point.

Maybe. "traditional" in the widest sense is, of course much more than just Irish or even Celtic music (everything that has been played before and mimicked later is calling itself traditional at some point); there is no danger of violating anything for the OP there, because whatever new style you play will become traditional after a while.
But "Irish Trad" as defined by the common use of the word is exactly what I said, and even within this realm there are hardline purists with smaller realms, along the lines of "if it doesn't sound like Michael Coleman it's not traditional" (talking about Seamus Tansey) - this is where the minefield lurks...

[multidon]

This has turned into a great discussion. One of the very best threads I think I have participated in. My heartfelt thanks to all who chimed in to help me.

I am not one of the greatest players of all time, but I do feel reasonably comfortable with tremolo. The band will be rehearsing today and I will look for places where it will sound musical. My favorite quote came from Beanzy, the line about it being a strong spice that came make or ruin a dish, depending on how it's used. I think that is a great metaphor.

Our band as I said is not what we traditionally think of as Irish instruments. We do have a guitar and mandolin but also mountain dulcimers. So if we perform Irish music we should be thinking of ways to make it our own in a way that will please our audiences.

[catmandu2]

Trad in the strict sense is dance tunes and maybe Sean Nos singing...

...

"Irish Trad" as defined by the common use of the word is exactly what I said..

With all due respect, there are many who would disagree.

Here's a recent thread, for example (discussing whether people should play airs at a session, but that airs are part of [Irish traditional music] seems well accepted): https://thesession.org/discussions/38329#comment778654

[Bertram Henze]

Airs are a part and accepted, but they are few and far between in a session - the exception, not the rule. Also, like with Sean Nos singing, the timing is not rigid, i.e. unless several players have practised this together you're supposed to play it alone, with everybody else listening. No thinner ice there is for a mandolin player to go skating on.

[catmandu2]

Airs are a part and accepted...

And laments, songs, ballads...

My point (and I'm sorry for indulging in multidon's reservations) is that there is more to trad than dance tunes, and imo a rather significant aspect. As a harper (playing lots of airs, Carolan laments and the rest .. and on a traditional Irish [wire] harp - itself somewhat atavistic - deriving from a time before there was an 'Ireland'), it's simply de rigueur for me to engage on this topic (sorry). Of course I like session/dance tunes too, but it's a big, deep well..that I feel is worthy of addressing. Thanks

*If we look far enough into 'tradition' we find much more. When were the session tunes 'written'? (rhetorically)

[Jill McAuley]

Find on youTube, ' Se Fath Mo Bhuartha ' by The Dubliners, then you will understand how good a mandolin played tremlo can sound.
But then again Barney McKenna was a very exceptional musician.

Dave H

I used to use some tremolo when playing "The Marino Waltz", as it seemed to fit, and was in the spirit of Barney and all that. Switched to just letting the notes ring out mainly for more accuracy in the timing of it as my tremolo technique was wobbly. Haven't played it in ages, must have a go again...

[foldedpath]

And laments, songs, ballads...

My point (and I'm sorry for indulging in multidon's reservations) is that there is more to trad than dance tunes, and imo a rather significant aspect. As a harper (playing lots of airs, Carolan laments and the rest .. and on a traditional Irish [wire] harp - itself somewhat atavistic - deriving from a time before there was an 'Ireland'), it's simply de rigueur for me to engage on this topic (sorry). Of course I like session/dance tunes too, but it's a big, deep well..that I feel is worthy of addressing.

I take your point, but how wide do we cast that net before we get into things like traditional slow airs, that are not exactly a comfortable fit on our little plucked instruments? I think that is what Bertram is getting at, at least in part. The session environment may not encompass the entirety of the tradition, but it covers a heck of a lot that's relevant to mandolin playing.

There might also be some confusion about what the term "air" or "slow air" means in this discussion. There are many tunes we play in a slow tempo but a steady meter, like Sí Bheag, Sí Mhór from the Carolan repertoire. That's not an air, as I understand it. Airs are almost always unaccompanied solo performances, with variable tempo and frequent pauses for emphasis. Like that Joanie Madden playing of Roisin Dubh I posted above. That's why they're impossible to play in a group setting like a session, like Bertram mentioned.

I'm not sure many of us here on the Cafe actually attempt to play these things. It's considered something of a high art. One recent commenter over in that thesession.org thread said that they don't play airs because they're not old enough yet (the player, not the tune!). You're supposed to be pretty deep down the well of the music to pull it off as a singer or instrumentalist, and they don't sit comfortably on non-sustaining instruments.

I mean, what is the point of entry for a mandolin player with an air like this one below? Does anyone think this would work on mandolin, just by powering your way through it with tremolo?





Now, if we're going to talk about how to play the slower tunes with steady meter like "slow reels," slower marches, "Irish waltzes" and such, that's a different discussion about pros and cons of tremolo (IMO). The playing of true slow airs like this can be safely ignored by most of us, I think, while still appreciating the beauty of the tune and the playing on more appropriate instruments.

[Dagger Gordon]

Now, if we're going to talk about how to play the slower tunes with steady meter like "slow reels," slower marches, "Irish waltzes" and such, that's a different discussion about pros and cons of tremolo (IMO). The playing of true slow airs like this can be safely ignored by most of us, I think, while still appreciating the beauty of the tune and the playing on more appropriate instruments.

So are you saying that Irish slow airs don't work at all on the mandolin - or just that you don't think tremolo works?
Also I would make a distinction between a waltz and an air.

[foldedpath]

Yes, I'm saying that an Irish slow air like the one above (Pórt Na BPúcaí) doesn't work at all on mandolin. With or without tremolo. It's just in a completely different world of expression, designed to be played on sustaining instruments of a certain type. Or sung by the human voice, which is where most of them started in the first place.

For one thing, we can't bend notes! I know airs are sometimes played on fixed pitch instruments like button accordion too. There is that classic YouTube clip of Tony MacMahon playing the tune on box. But with an instrument that can bend notes like the pipes, flute or whistle, you get that plaintive "cry" in the sound. Not possible on mandolin.

I also don't think tremolo works as well as just using sustain between the notes on a mandolin when playing slow tunes that aren't actually airs like that -- the "slow reels," slower marches, waltzes, and so on. But that's probably more arguable, and in my case a personal preference to avoid tremolo. With actual slow airs, I think the limitation is more self-evident.

[catmandu2]

Only can just skim now, but from the points I just saw until I can read all later - "how to play the music, etc .." is an interesting aspect, and one id like to engage thanks - it's what I was beginning with when I saw this thread - 'interpreting the music on (modern-[ish] - if you will) instruments' .. a large broad dissicussion with lots of relevance .. interpreting and playing in the tradition ...

- - - Updated - - -

But with an instrument that can bend notes like the pipes, flute or whistle, you get that plaintive "cry" in the sound. Not possible on mandolin.

Yah - great question. How to treat the music. How does one play these tunes , on mando (a la multidon's OP, etc... That's what I was asking myself yesterday when I sat with the nylon harp to play Caniad Llywelyn Delynior -

[multidon]

Well, just got home from my rehearsal, and I am happy to report back.

For a while now I was using tremolo on just about anything longer than a half note, because I just felt I HAD to in order to sustain the note. Today I re-thought everything and started to just let the note sustain through the count much more often. The result was, to me, a cleaner, more pure sound. On the other hand there were still a few places where it just seemed right. But, generally speaking, it would seem that I was drastically over using it.

I am thankful to everyone who participated here who helped me get my head straight about tremolo in Irish music. I shall let musicality decide when I should use it, and I will use it with great restraint. But I am still happy that I have it in my tool box if needed.

I guess the whole problem started with me because I use primarily F hole instruments and I just didn't think there was enough sustain and I had to use the tremolo. Today proved me wrong. There as plenty of sustain most of the time to carry though the notes.

[Beanzy]

Sounds like a great result for a first rethink.
I often think we're a bit like pianists without the sustain pedal and much of what we do is inferred, suggested and hinted at rather than just delivered & the spaces between the notes are so important to making it musical.

[catmandu2]

@ F-path re post #36 -

Right, I hadn't commented on all that (its relative appropriateness or inappropriateness in a session). What I am/was getting at was that - slow music (be it airs, laments, song, whatever...) is part of Irish trad. Sounded to me that Bertram was explicitly excluding it.

And relative to multidon's OP - how do we treat slow music (be it Danny Boy, Sí Bheag, Sí Mhór, or Dear Irish Boy..) in the tradition, effectively with a mandolin? (or other similarly challenging instrument for 'slow music,' etc).

Personally, the way I've solved this for myself is with clarsach and hammered dulcimer - where simply the resonance of the instrument provides for this type of (slow) music effectively .

[brunello97]

I play a lot of slow airs - mostly Scottish admittedly. I guess I tend to use a sort of steady slowish tremolo. And yes, my instrument has a lot of sustain.

Something like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3H9nfGxu3ao

Lovely playing, Dagger, fair play to you.

I'm Irish, well Scots-Irish actually, but mostly play Italian music. Right or wrong, try as I might, I can hardly not play tremolo when I'm digging in the homegrown stuff. I'm just Texas Jackeen, though.

Wouldn't seem natural if it didn't start a barney of some kind. It's a Family Affair.

Mick

[catmandu2]

I often think we're a bit like pianists without the sustain pedal and much of what we do is inferred, suggested and hinted at rather than just delivered & the spaces between the notes are so important to making it musical.

So important.

When you get really slow, you can shape notes with ever subtle and nuanced gestures. Some that I employ: ornaments take on different character, value - and we can use them with more variation too; with more elastic time, space and meter are ever more present and we can employ more variation there; with intervals taking on more distinct value/presence, we can of course employ more variety there - create greater depth, contrast, tension, resolve, et al; any weighting or lightening translates into rhythmic and/or harmonic interplay - notes can be 'examined' - and there is great opportunity for expressive phrasing .. and so on.. in a word - color the music/color the sound. I love time, so I enjoy forms which provide more opportunity for play there. In essence, the sound is more vivid or can be rendered with great clarity - so there are opportunities .. I've noticed - it's often as much about what I leave out - and what Beanzy said then - playing with space. I concede that, generally the more expressive your instrument the 'easier' this is to achieve..

*Oh, I remember one I often played on mandolin using lots of tremolo - one of my favorite sets to play on HD, fiddle, or mando/cbom - 'Mountain Aire/Washington's March/Bonaparte's Retreat' as I learned it from the Tim O recording. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaWUf59QZvA

[Dagger Gordon]

For what it's worth, one of the few people I ever heard play the mandolin who was much older than me was a friend of my father - a man called Ian Aird. He used to play the banjo/mandolin and indeed was the leader of a local dance band. This fellow would have been well over 100 years old were he still alive.

He hadn't played much for quite a while but was in the house once and had a tune on what was probably my own first mandolin. I'm pretty sure he played Danny Boy, for which I think he used quite a lot of tremolo.
Actually that tune (and yes, I do understand that you may think it's corny etc) DOES suit tremolo in a way that Cillian Valley's pipe air (post 36) may not. In the same way as Barney MacKenna played Roisin Dubh, I would say that early 'Celtic' mandolin players (remembering of course that no-one called it Celtic music then!) certainly did use tremolo, and I doubt if many people would have had a problem with it - indeed I should think that would have been what they would have expected it to sound like.

Everyone knows that tremolo is a technique used a lot on the mandolin. I don't see why you shouldn't use it if you think it works in a tune. If you think that the instrument itself doesn't suit slow Irish airs - well that's maybe another matter. I can only say that it's been a big part of my own playing ever since I started and I think it works pretty well.

[Bertram Henze]

What I am/was getting at was that - slow music (be it airs, laments, song, whatever...) is part of Irish trad. Sounded to me that Bertram was explicitly excluding it.

There maybe a misunderstanding. It started at post #13, where I tended to exclude bawdy Dublin street ditties (Molly Malone, I'll Tell Me Ma, Maggie in the Woods etc) from the center of Irish Trad. The capital is hardly ever the country.

Airs are dance music in my mind, simply because they are listed in O'Neill's Dance Music of Ireland; you don't exactly dance to them on your feet, but in your mind out of time and space (airs are the Tai Chi counterpart of reels and jigs). Also O'Carolan pieces are listed there, and they are a category of their own but still an integral part of what is known as Irish Trad. I define Irish Trad by "what hits your mind first when you hear the words Irish Trad?", and it is far from having a sharp border. I think 80/20, not 100/0. Dance music and Sean Nos are the center of gravity of Irish Trad, but there's lots of satellites circling.

[catmandu2]

... in a word - color the music/color the sound.

Er, I mean - dynamics (that's the word I was looking for )

[BlueMt.]

Wonderful discussion. My love of slow airs, laments and etc. is what led me to take up the fiddle and low whistle; I was never quite happy with what I could do on mandolin and I quickly realized the Uilleann pipes were beyond my grasp.

[foldedpath]

My love of slow airs, laments and etc. is what led me to take up the fiddle and low whistle; I was never quite happy with what I could do on mandolin and I quickly realized the Uilleann pipes were beyond my grasp.

I took a similar path a couple years ago in starting to learn "Irish" flute (simple system, conical bore wooden flute). It wasn't for the airs, but more to explore articulation on the sustained tone, and figure out what all that mysterious stuff like cuts, rolls, and crans were all about. Being able to play slow airs would be a nice bonus if I ever get good enough to pull it off, but that's probably years away if I live long enough.

But I still play mandolin! There are some interesting partial harmonization options that don't exist to the same degree on the sustaining instruments. Aside from that, the mandolin is just pure fun to play. The flute is more like very hard work, but there are moments of fun that sneak in here and there.

[BlueMt.]

I took a similar path a couple years ago in starting to learn "Irish" flute (simple system, conical bore wooden flute). It wasn't for the airs, but more to explore articulation on the sustained tone, and figure out what all that mysterious stuff like cuts, rolls, and crans were all about. Being able to play slow airs would be a nice bonus if I ever get good enough to pull it off, but that's probably years away if I live long enough.

But I still play mandolin! There are some interesting partial harmonization options that don't exist to the same degree on the sustaining instruments. Aside from that, the mandolin is just pure fun to play. The flute is more like very hard work, but there are moments of fun that sneak in here and there.

I also still play mandolin, but not as much as I used to. You're right about the fun factor; when the fiddle starts driving me crazy, I pick up the mandolin and have some fun.