Tightening Tuners?

[bluegrazz]

I tried doing a search on this topic but turned up nothing.

My "slightly used" Eastman MD315 has one tuner (A) that has a lot of "slop" in it. In other words, if I tune up just past optimum A and then have to go back down a bit, my tuner rotates about a quarter turn before it "catches" on the gear and then starts working. Same thing if I have to tune back up. It rotates about a quarter turn before it starts moving the gear again.

Does anyone know a fairly easy fix to this other than replacing these tuning machines?

Yes, I've made sure that the screws are all tight.

Thanks to anyone who can help.

[MikeEdgerton]

Take a look at this from Paul Hostetter's site. It's rarely the tuner being bad but it's not unheard of.

[bluegrazz]

That article seems to address old, tight tuners and how to lubricate them, Mike. If I had to guess, my gears problem is that the worm gear is a bit too far from the geared cog, not that it is too close (tight).

[multidon]

One of the ways Eastman can offer low prices on the 300 series is by cheaping out on the tuners and tailpiece. If it were mine I would go ahead and upgrade the tuners. Easy fix for not a lot of money. A nice set of Grover 309s would be what, 80 bucks or so? If you have tightened all the screws there isn't really anything else you can do, IMO.

[bluegrazz]

Don, do you know if those Grover 309s are a direct drop-in replacement on this Eastman MD315? Or will I have to redrill/modify holes in order for it to fit?

[MikeEdgerton]

If you read down through it talks about tuner maintenance and setup. If the setup is right and it still won't tune properly you need different tuners.

[MikeEdgerton]

Tuners are sized by the distance between the post centers. You might, and I say might have to remove the tuner bushings and replace them as well. Most new sets come with the bushings but you may need to enlarge the hole in the headstock a bit to accommodate them or in odd cases get the larger bushings that fit your post diameter. Changing tuners isn't rocket science but you need to know if the spacing is correct and you have to know if the tuners have the worm gear above or below the cog. Buy the same configuration that you currently have. You may or may not have to redrill the screw holes no matter whose tuners you buy.

[multidon]

I have no idea whether they are drop in or not but most tuners use the same post spacing and they will drop in thatt way. The only tuners I ever heard of with non standard modern spacing are old Gibsons and modern Rovers (which I did not know until a recent thread). Whenever you replace tuners you almost always have to drill at least some new screw holes. Nobody's seem to be identical. Some will line up, some not. Stew Mac Golden Age tuners mount with only 3 screws, that minimizes the amount of re drilling that's necessary. You only need to plug holes if the old ones are exposed. Most of the time the new plates cover the old holes. If any show a toothpick with a little wood glue followed by a brown Sharpie works wonders. I would try to find a set with posts that work with the bushings that are already installed. Changing bushings is a pain in the you know what. Hope this helps. Good luck.

[bluegrazz]

It sounds like my best solution is to buy a Gibson, right?

Seriously, I knew this was a Chinese-made mandolin when I bought it, so I didn't expect top-shelf components on it. But the reviews on these Eastmans seem to be, for the most part, quite glowing. So while I didn't think it would drive like a Cadillac, I thought it would be adequate. For now, I think I'll just mess around with it a bit and see if I can get it to tighten up some. I don't think I can do anything to it that $70 for new Grovers can't fix. Ha ha!

Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and input!

[pit lenz]

Don, do you know if those Grover 309s are a direct drop-in replacement on this Eastman MD315? Or will I have to redrill/modify holes in order for it to fit?

I replaced the tuners of my Eastman with a set of Grovers.
No need to redrill the post holes, I even used the original bushings that were in the headstock. If I remember correctly, I had to redrill one little hole for the screws, but the original hole was covered by the backplate.

[A 4]

Is there a chance that the tuner button is slipping on the post? An image search reveals that some tuners have a screw holding the button on and some do not. In either case, the button can come loose, leading to substantial backlash before eventual failure.

In my case, after much searching, cyanoacrylate glue was the solution.

[bluegrazz]

A4, I've looked at it closely and, in this case, it is not the knob turning loosely on the shaft. It is a case where the entire knob and shaft rotate about 90 degrees before it starts to turn the gear. None of the other 7 tuners exhibit this problem, just this one. I'll measure tonight and compare my stock with the Grovers. Ah, the endless pursuit of upgrades!

[bluegrazz]

I talked to the seller of my Eastman today and, to my surprise, he is going to send me a brand new set of Ping tuners. Granted, they are not Grovers. But they aren't costing me anything either. So I figure that they are worth a shot. If they don't work out, I'll buy the Grovers. Thanks again to everyone for their advice.

[HoGo]

I talked to the seller of my Eastman today and, to my surprise, he is going to send me a brand new set of Ping tuners. Granted, they are not Grovers. But they aren't costing me anything either. So I figure that they are worth a shot. If they don't work out, I'll buy the Grovers. Thanks again to everyone for their advice.

From this I sense indication that something's wrong with the hole spacing on your mandolin...
Even very worn tuners with pretty loose gears should work smoothly as the tension of strings is enough to keep the worm and cog wheel allways in contact. If you loosen string and the post doesn't turn without freely without "waiting" for the other edge of worm pushing it down it surely binds in the hole. And, from your description, since the worm and gear seem to be too far apart, that might be result of post being pushed in that direction by misaligned hole and the plate got worn and gears pulled away.
SO, if this is the case, your new tuners may get in trouble when installed into such holes.
ANother possibility is on tuners that have tabs holding worm riveted to plate that the rivets are loose or bent away from gear or even in wrong place from new. Sometimes few well aimed hits with small hammer, or gentle squeezing in vice can do wonders. In my experience 95 out of 100 cases problem lies in improper drilling of the holes and most of the really bad tuners (even the cheapest ones) could be put back to life by simple cleaning, lubing or tiny adjustment with hammer or pliers.
Whatever you will do with the tuners, change or repair, check thoroughly hole spacing and their alignment (sometimes the hole is just moved to side by fraction of an inch so distance between posts is OK, but the post binds excessively) both on front and back of headstock.

[HoGo]

I looked for the pics of tuners on MD 315 and see that they are the variety with bent hooks that hold worm against gear. These are easy to adjust by bending the hooks a little (small hammer or vice) when they are worn or misaligned.

[bluegrazz]

Thanks for your input and recommendations, HoGo. This is my first foray into the wonderful world of mandolins. As one famous player has said, "I spend one half my time tuning, and the other half playing out of tune." I didn't want to have to fight the instrument too much in learning it, so, for that reason, I didn't choose a Mitchell or a Rogue. I would have thought that these mass-produced mandolins were done on robotic machines where there was little chance for misaligning holes, but who knows? Anyway, in light of your advice, I will make a template from the Grover 309s and compare it to my actual headstock, looking for improperly drilled holes to see if I can fix it. And I still may end up buying the Grovers anyway. I'm surely not going to put Waverlys on it. No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it is still a pig. I just want a decent mandolin to learn on. See if it fits me. Then I can decide if I want to second mortgage my house in order to get a good one.

[multidon]

Your Eastman is not a "pig" but instead a nice mandolin at a reasonable price. As I said part of the way they keep the price down is by using cheap tuners and tailpieces. It is very common for folks to upgrade those items after purchase, especially buying used, because 70 or 80 dollars later you are still ahead of the game. I find it difficult to believe misaligned holes would be the problem. Surely they use a template to drill those. I still think better quality tuners are the answer to your problem. That is not putting lipstick on a pig, but rather giving a decent mandolin the decent hardware it deserves to have.

[bluegrazz]

Don, could you recommend any upgrade tailpieces and bridges for this model for if/when I do upgrade it?

[Larry Simonson]

I would not discount what HoGo wrote. Trying to down tune a mandolin string is not easy and one can easily get the impression that there is more backlash present than actually exists because of friction in both the nut and the post bushing. Generally mandolins with tapered headstock where the bushing base is not parallel with the underside mounting plate have imperfect alignment.

[bluegrazz]

I won't discount HoGo's advice, Larry. But in light of some other reviews here on the quality of Ping tuners and the basic worthiness of my MD315, I ordered some Grovers for it. To me, it is a justifiable upgrade. But I will, nonetheless, make sure the holes in my headstock are aligned and ensure my new Grovers are lubed with Tri-flow.

[multidon]

The Cumberland Acoustic bridge is reported to improve tone of just about anything it's retrofitted to. But this needs to be done by a luthier or at least someone comfortable with the procedure. As for tailpieces, one piece cast tailpieces are very popular replacements, such as the Allen. Some say they make the tone better but that is very debatable. At the very least, the lack of a separate cover eliminates the possibility of buzzing and rattling from there, and makes string changes easier. You have to be careful though. Some models of the Allen are made to be drop in replacements and some are not. Even if you choose the drop in model there is the possibility, especially on an import,mthat you might still have to drill new screw holes.

The thing that we get into with upgrading an instrument is the cost vs. benefit ratio. For example, if you upgrade to Grover tuners ($80), a CA bridge ($50 plus $50 additional for luthier installation), and an Allen tailpiece ($100), you have spent $280. At that cost you have to ask yourself if you might have been better off if you had spent the extra money on an upgraded model that already had the better hardware. The other side of the coin, though, is that the CA bridge, Allen tailpiece, and Grover tuners would be superior to anything that would come standard on most imports.

[bluegrazz]

That's good advice, Don. From other threads I've read here on the Café, it seems that the tuners are probably the only "mandatory" (if I can use that word) upgrade. It's the pits fighting with low-quality tuners. The tailpiece and bridge are probably "optional" upgrades, but certainly not necessary. Granted, I'm a noob, but my mando sounds good and loud to me. Things may change as I become more seasoned, and if they do, I *might* upgrade then. We'll see. But from what I've seen in other posts, people find this particular model (and the MD305) to be good beginner's mandolins, especially if the tuners are upgraded. So that is what I'm doing for now. Thanks for the advice.

[Ron Cox]

My new Eastman 305 has exactly the same problem. For now, I just live with it as it doesn't seem to be as bad as Bluegrazz's.

I did contemplate the new tuners, but haven't felt the need since my 305 is for tossing into the car on the way to work. My local where I bought it offered to replace them with Ping tuners. They looked worse than the stock tuners, so I declined. They did offer to install for free any tuners I brought to them.

Funny, my old Kentucky pancake mandolin (under 300 new 25 years ago) has incredible tuners that are still smooth as silk. I have never done any tune ups on them, or even oiled them since I bought it all those years ago.

[theCOOP]

The only problem here as I see it is that you're tuning past pitch then trying to tune down to pitch.

I can't believe nobody recommended not trying to tune-down. Always tune up to pitch. If you go past, turn it back below and try again.

Sure, they're not high grade tuners but they get the job done.

[HoGo]

The only problem here as I see it is that you're tuning past pitch then trying to tune down to pitch.
I can't believe nobody recommended not trying to tune-down. Always tune up to pitch. If you go past, turn it back below and try again.
Sure, they're not high grade tuners but they get the job done.

Agree that even the cheapest tuners will work properly if thay are installed and/or adjusted properly. This type of gear is so low tech that very little can go wrong in production or installation even in "low quality chinese manufacture". I've seen my share of this type of tuners and the gears seem to be cut just as precisely as on the pricier machines, problems were usually with the baseplates that were simple cut sheet metal with bent hooks. The hooks sometimes got loose when tuner shaft got banged carelessly and simple hit with hammer brought it back into service.
Tuning up is good idea but OP's problem was that they were very loose, not that they won't hold tuning. This is usually temporary solution for tight nut slots.
If the tuners won't go down just by tension of string alone no matter ho much back;lash there is in the gears, there is problem with binding post somewhere. And even new tuners may show the same problem after some time of usage.