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Thread: Why Violins Have F-Holes

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    Default Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Somewhat mandolin-related in that some of them have f-holes, too. The single (at the time I read it) comment brings up the interesting point that a "C" shape would make for an easily broken tab of wood. Anyway, instead of a singular moment of clarity when all makers declared, "f-holes it is!", looks like it was a matter of copying from others and evolution.

    Why Violins Have F-Holes

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    I just downloaded the pdf...looking forward to reading it. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    And I thought that the designer was a mathematician who just like the integration symbol...

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    I stopped reading here:
    "These hollow wooden resonance chambers amplify the sound of the strings, but that sound must escape..."
    Neither is correct. instrument bodies do not amplify sound, and said sound does not need to "escape" through holes of any shape. How can I expect the rest of the article to be any more accurate?

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    I stopped reading here:
    "These hollow wooden resonance chambers amplify the sound of the strings, but that sound must escape..."
    Neither is correct. instrument bodies do not amplify sound, and said sound does not need to "escape" through holes of any shape. How can I expect the rest of the article to be any more accurate?
    Thanks for the warning.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    The linked article was referring to the Makris paper. That paper was discussed in this forum in a thread last year. Makris' flow equations were OK, his experiment was a little dodgy, and he greatly overstated the importance of the ff-hole shape. His contention was essentially that the greater perimeter length of the ff-holes gave just the 'right' resonance frequencies. However, the same results could have been obtained with other shaped holes by decreasing their areas. Or, one could use a much more complex and random shape and take the idea even further. However, the calculated lowering of the air resonance frequencies was only a matter of 5-10 Hz. The basic mechanism of soundhole radiation remains: The main air resonance frequency has to be close enough in frequency to that of the lower main body mode (i.e., first resonance of the top and back plates), so that the coupling between plate motions and air resonance is strong. And, there are numerous ways to accomplish that. Also, Makris completely neglected to address the considerable higher-frequency sound radiation from the outside of the violin body. In all, a pretty inconsequential contribution to the physics of bowed string instruments. Apparently, overstatement does gain some traction with lay readers. Otoh, the musical acoustics community gave his paper a big ho-hum.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Also, some atrocious doctoral writing, devolving at times to gibberish.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    I thought it had something to do with one of the 'old master builders' peeling an orange.?.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    I also thought it has some connection to the shape of the waist, in that the holes have to work within the narrowness of the waist, while avoiding the bridge and allowing it to have a stable footing. The waist shape came before the hole design, intended to allow space for bowing without the bow hitting the body. So those considerations strictly limited the shape and placement of the holes. This may or may not be the story.

    The only other alternative would be a round or oval hole above the bridge, like on oval hole mandolins.

    Comma shaped holes are not unheard of but I think of them as just simplification of the same f-hole principle. Maybe f-holes were just found to look prettier. And the pinch in the middle seems to provide strength for the wood as well as a rough guide for bridge placement.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    My SWAG (Scientific Wild-A**ed Guess): 99% tradition, 1% some experimental results of centuries past, devolving into tradition.
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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    Maybe f-holes were just found to look prettier.
    Could be. Sometimes the simplest explanation turns out to be the correct explanation. The shape is also a pretty good one structurally, so that might have something to do with it too.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    With the old builders having arrived at the current 'shape' of the Viol family in general (they weren't always that shape),i tend to agree that maybe the 'f'; holes were decided on as a shape to match the instrument. We've had mandolin /guitar builders on here who've built mandolins/guitars with soundhole shapes other than 'f' holes,& they've worked perfectly well.
    Similar articles to the one that Mike's pointed to have appeared from time to time & they're just about as informed as the articles telling us how/why the old master violin maker's violins sound so good - ie. wood type/age, the varnish having 'mysterious' ingredients in it etc.etc..... Without 'absolute proof' of anything,even the 'experts' can only make educated guesses. Imagine that if suddenly,it was decided by many of our current builders,that a different soundhole shape was 'more pleasing', & that many of them adopted it. At some future date,if these mandolins were 'investigated',might the investigators not surmise that the soundhole shape was changed because it was 'better' ?. I'd bet my last $ (£) that they would,
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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    True -- much is due to accident or subjective preference -- but there is only so much you can do with the small area given, and the structural strength of the wood.

    If I knew nothing of violin tradition and was given a top plate without holes, my first instinct might be to place a comma or "c" midway between the bridge and edge of the waist, but following the curve of the edge (i.e. a backwards "c" on the bass side, and a normal "c" on the treble side, or like two parentheses: ) (. Very close to the f-hole design.

    Alternately, the only other place would be the upper or lower bouts. You might put small round or oval holes there, maybe just two on either the upper or lower bout, or four (a hole on each bout.)

    I'd like to see a violin with no top holes, but just sound ports along the side. It's probably been tried.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    I don't understand the statement that the box doesn't amplify sound, what else amplifies the sound of the vibrating string on an acoustic instrument if not the box, I know that the string vibrates the top thru the bridge etc. But that is the chain to accomplish amplification. An instrument that is amplified electrically has a chain to accomplish amplification also the electricity does not do it directly. Maybe our vocabulary is different but the full term in my mind is acoustically amplified IMHO

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticDude View Post
    And I thought that the designer was a mathematician who just like the integration symbol...
    The best explanation I so far
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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    But that is the chain to accomplish amplification.
    Amplification in a strict sense works by introduction of an external power source (e.g. from the mains) into the chain, controlled by a smaller power (e.g. an electric guitar). Another example would be a hurricane where the external power source is condensation heat from water vapor, controlled by a circular flow.

    OTOH, raising output simply by improving string-to-top, top-to-air and air-to-air coupling is known as "opening up"
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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertram Henze View Post
    Amplification in a strict sense works by introduction of an external power source (e.g. from the mains) into the chain, controlled by a smaller power (e.g. an electric guitar). Another example would be a hurricane where the external power source is condensation heat from water vapor, controlled by a circular flow.

    OTOH, raising output simply by improving string-to-top, top-to-air and air-to-air coupling is known as "opening up"
    Thanks for that explanation, like I said its a difference in vocabulary where most of us have the wrong definition of the word. So what you are saying is all instruments open up we have that settled now LOL

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    This is, of course, a brief summary: http://strad3d.org/demo/videoTour2.html

    The typical arching and F hole are quite elementary and do not acknowledge the potential. This may be the case with mandolins, too. I keep thinking that arching and F hole development offers a great deal of potential.
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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Ladies and gentlemen, all yawl have got it wrong. The following explanation of how a fiddle makes its sound comes straight from the mouth of the illustrious Dr. Ralph Stanley.

    First of all, the sound holes are not shaped like the letter 'F'. They are shaped like the letter 'S'. Now the bow is strung with horsehair, and the fiddle is strung with catgut. So when you run the horsehair across the catgut, the sound comes out of the S-hole.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    ...what else amplifies the sound of the vibrating string on an acoustic instrument if not the box...
    The answer to that question is;
    nothing.

    Bertram got it right:

    Amplification in a strict sense works by introduction of an external power source
    What the box does is take energy from the vibrating string and use it to vibrating air so that we can hear it as sound. It does not amplify the vibrations. That, as Bertram said, would require power.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    I understand what y'all are saying, but most people, myself included,think of amplification as making something louder, so while you both are technically correct ( and I know you are I checked) common usage will probably remain amplify means make louder. I know the frustration of hearing terms used incorrectly that really doesn't mean what most people think it means. Hot water heater is my pet peeve in my work, hot water doesn't need heating, but I've even seen advertisements for hot water heaters.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    ...amplification as making something louder
    that's right, but taken to the next level: there must be more output power than input power provided by the player, then it's amplification.

    And if logically correct language was common, we'd never have that famous Monroe quote...
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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    My Ithaca NV electric viola has side holes, and none on top. Weird sound under my ear, but when I hear it played by another person at a few feet of distance it sounds more normal. I think Eric Aceto was looking to control the feedback a live top can generate, so his top is more restricted in its activity without the flexibility of the f-holes. I think that example shows that the f-holes have two functions: they are ports that add resonance in a certain range, and they are also hinges that let the top move in a piston manner, e.g. as a unit between the f-holes. The x-braced round- or oval-hole instruments' tops would flex more like a drum head, I think. The simplest f-hole would be a slot, not a C-shape.

    As to amplifying, the top and body are the speaker and cabinet, which also do not amplify but do mechanically translate one kind of energy into another, and make use of resonance. The last is key for discussing musical instruments, because they all concentrate the mix of vibrations from the input (lips, air, drum skin, etc.) into useful resonances, which makes the input energy more effective. A trumpet is so darn loud because all the input energy is concentrated into a very narrow frequency range, and also radiates very directionally. Violins have broader resonances and radiate much more omnidirectionally.

    On a violin, the signal input is the fingered string length, the amplifier power is the bow, and the speaker is the top, and the cabinet is the body.
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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    I understand what y'all are saying, but most people, myself included,think of amplification as making something louder, so while you both are technically correct ( and I know you are I checked) common usage will probably remain amplify means make louder. I know the frustration of hearing terms used incorrectly that really doesn't mean what most people think it means. Hot water heater is my pet peeve in my work, hot water doesn't need heating, but I've even seen advertisements for hot water heaters.
    "Amplifier" is the wrong term; a musical instrument is actually an attenuator. It takes the comparatively large mechanical energy input from the player's arm and hand and redirects it to the string(s) and then to the top and back where it is transformed into air movement, losing most of the energy as wasted arm movement and low-level heat in the process. Just the opposite of an amplifier.

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    Default Re: Why Violins Have F-Holes

    A musical instrument is a tone generator.
    A poor musician could be an attenuator.
    Sound waves with peaks closer together are greater in frequency.
    Sound waves with larger/taller peaks have greater amplitude.
    Amplification is anything that makes the wave taller/greater in amplitude.

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