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Thread: French Polishing for Dummies?

  1. #1
    Registered User TJ.'s Avatar
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    Default French Polishing for Dummies?

    Hi everyone. Varnishing sucks! (As some of you may have learned by now) Well I've decided it's finally time to learn French Polishing. Not that it will suck any less than varnishing does, but I am more than willing to take the time and trouble to learn a new technique that doesn't stink. (!) The only other option I've found that came even close was about a year ago when I first tried the KTM water based finish. It was fine for working indoors with limited ventilation. (Small basement shop in the middle of winter. AND it's Really cold outside!) I had mixed results with the KTM (and I might continue to use it again in the future) but like I said, this old dog needs to learn a new trick. I've checked out a few YouTube videos, but was just wondering what you all would recommend as the best tutorial videos to get started. Thanks! TJ.

  2. #2
    working for the mando.... Bluetickhound's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    This may be one of the most well covered topics on the site but getting to your question, the 6 part series by weeping Z guitars was very helpful to me. Ymmv. Check the search function for a plethora of threads on the subject.
    "A creative man is driven by the the desire to achieve, not by the desire to beat others."

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    Registered User bernabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Pick a reputable method, smooth out your abandoned "varnish" to 1200, and go to town. You have to acquire a feel that can't be explained: the right pressure, too wet, too dry, too much oil, not enough oil, room temp, humidity, etc. All matters. You don't want to stick and you want a vapor trail. And the day it's all finally going on beautifully, the next day will be a mess. Nature of the beast. Practice feeling it and when its not going right, stop and try again tomorrow.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Frank Ford's www.frets.com has this article.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    One of the better known tutorials on french polishing is by Bob and Orville Milburn.
    Bill Snyder

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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    I spent about 600 hours doing French polishing in 2014. I now only use it for repairs or freshening up instruments originally made with French polish. If you want a quicker/easier way to achieve a nice finish than (insert finishing method here), French polish is NOT the way to go. I've actually refinished several of the instruments I originally shipped to customers with spirit varnish/French polish, and the customers are happier with the appearance and functionality of the new finish, which took me only a fraction of the time to apply.

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    Dobe 

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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    I had an awful time with a project where I oil varnished a violin in the white. That was documented in another thread I started several years ago. Oil varnishing is not something I do lots of, this was a one off project. Just couldn't get it to look right no matter what I did. John Hamlett (sunburst) finally gave me the solution. As many topcoats as necessary over the varnish with Tru Oil. It only took 2 coats in my case. I rubbed out the first one with ultra fine Micro Mesh and left the final coat alone. It looks great! If. Am remembering correctly, isn't there a "major" mandolin maker who uses that same method, Tru Oil over varnish? I can't remember which one but I think someone of note does it.
    Don

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    Registered User bernabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    I had an awful time with a project where I oil varnished a violin in the white. That was documented in another thread I started several years ago. Oil varnishing is not something I do lots of, this was a one off project. Just couldn't get it to look right no matter what I did. John Hamlett (sunburst) finally gave me the solution. As many topcoats as necessary over the varnish with Tru Oil. It only took 2 coats in my case. I rubbed out the first one with ultra fine Micro Mesh and left the final coat alone. It looks great! If. Am remembering correctly, isn't there a "major" mandolin maker who uses that same method, Tru Oil over varnish? I can't remember which one but I think someone of note does it.
    Tom Ellis comes to mind iirc. He bought up all the Behlens RockHard he could before they changed over from a short oil product to urethane b/c that was his thing. Anyway, he used Truoil top coat over that if I'm correct.

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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Jacobson View Post
    I spent about 600 hours doing French polishing in 2014. I now only use it for repairs or freshening up instruments originally made with French polish. If you want a quicker/easier way to achieve a nice finish than (insert finishing method here), French polish is NOT the way to go. I've actually refinished several of the instruments I originally shipped to customers with spirit varnish/French polish, and the customers are happier with the appearance and functionality of the new finish, which took me only a fraction of the time to apply.
    Marty, what are you using for finish instead of French polished shellac? I too have spent way too many hours working on FP finish. I can get it to a look great only to find it crackles a day later, or even weeks, months later. For me, it's too unpredictable and way too much work. I would rather not spray nitro on mandolins, but it's certainly a lot easier and more forgiving.

    Thanks,

    Scott

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    Registered User bernabe's Avatar
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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Sliebers, I also spent hours learning FP as well as struggling through other finishes but went to Endurovar which is what Marty is using. Unless he just switched, here's a recent discussion about it. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ight=endurovar I'm glad I went through the FP process as there is always a use for it somewhere.

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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Thanks Bernabe. I'm going to try Endurovar.
    I too am glad I went through the process of learning FP. I've been able to do some finish repairs with it.

    The funny thing is I can FP a guitar in about a week and there are no problems. It's a whole different story on mandolins with an oil varnish undercoat. I've let the oil varnish cure for 2 months and sanded up to 2000 grit before FP. I think the oil varnish stays flexible for a long time and causes crazing in the shellac if it's not applied just right. I understand it needs to be very thin, which I think I've accomplished as I've buffed through the FP in spots (by hand) and have had to do touchups.

    Being able to spray one finish is appealing. I would like to be done with FP on mandolins.

  16. #12

    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Quote Originally Posted by bernabe View Post
    Sliebers, I also spent hours learning FP as well as struggling through other finishes but went to Endurovar which is what Marty is using. Unless he just switched, here's a recent discussion about it. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ight=endurovar I'm glad I went through the FP process as there is always a use for it somewhere.
    Yep, still using it, it's a great finish and very easy to work with. Not to say that finishing an instrument is easy, by any means, but wrestling with the materials and/or process is an added complication which I just don't need.

  17. #13
    Registered User TJ.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Hey thanks everyone for the advice. It was fun to think about FP being a quick, easy and stink-free process, but I do believe I am cured of that now. I've gone back to using the KTM Water-based Finish as a base coat with ColorTone Aerosol Guitar Lacquer to finish it up. The KTM is wonderful to work with, but the visual end results (so far) are slightly disappointing. Finishing it up with the ColorTone aerosol makes for a wonderful satin finish... but the smell is enough to knock you out cold! Fortunately I've recently discovered it sprays on just fine outside in 39 degree weather with a heat lamp provided for drying. (Just have to hold your breath while doing it) I guess varnishing will always suck, but now it's not as bad as it was. Thanks again!

  18. #14

    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Wouldn't you agree, in finishing, that there are several ways that seem to work for other builders?
    When trying a finish that others have used successfully, you can quickly find some reason to not like it.
    Bad smell? Makes you sick? Sure, those are good reasons to reject, but eventually you will have to find one that you can "stand" enough to put in the time, sometimes years, to work through the problems, and make that finish "yours".
    In a world of choices, the most important thing is to stick to one thing long enough to MAKE it work for you.
    Myself, I cannot imagine a better finish for instruments, where "sound" is of first importance, than shellac.

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  20. #15

    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Quote Originally Posted by TJ. View Post
    Hey thanks everyone for the advice. It was fun to think about FP being a quick, easy and stink-free process, but I do believe I am cured of that now. I've gone back to using the KTM Water-based Finish as a base coat with ColorTone Aerosol Guitar Lacquer to finish it up. The KTM is wonderful to work with, but the visual end results (so far) are slightly disappointing. Finishing it up with the ColorTone aerosol makes for a wonderful satin finish... but the smell is enough to knock you out cold! Fortunately I've recently discovered it sprays on just fine outside in 39 degree weather with a heat lamp provided for drying. (Just have to hold your breath while doing it) I guess varnishing will always suck, but now it's not as bad as it was. Thanks again!
    If you wear a respirator, there is no smell and no harmful effects to your health, either.

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  22. #16

    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Just want to give a thumbs up to what Marty has said. Breathing lacquer fumes is harmful and we all should be wearing a cartridge respirator when spraying. The fumes can also be explosive if built up in the right concentration in an enclosed space.

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    Default Re: French Polishing for Dummies?

    Not only are the fumes harmful when spraying, the gassing out stages release harmful fumes as well.
    I recently visited Hans Brentrup. As many of you know, he can no longer build as he suffers from COPD. Hans said years of breathing lacquer fumes have attributed to his affliction. He worked in a cabinet shop years ago that did not vent properly when spraying, so that's part of it. However, he kept his guitar bodies hanging in his basement workshop after spraying to let them cure. Working along side the gassing out lacquer did not do his health any good.
    I'm taking this information as a warning to be more cautious around lacquer fumes, or any fumes for that matter. I'm sure oil varnish has some harmful gases as well.
    Building instruments has already taken a toll on my body, I don't need to add one more harmful item to the process.

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