Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 37

Thread: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

  1. #1

    Default Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Hi all. I am so grateful for the wealth of information on this forum and really glad to be a part of it. I recently got bitten by the tenor guitar bug and have found myself playing more than I ever have before whether it be ukulele or guitar.

    There is a 1966 Harmony Sovereign 1201T for sale about an hour from me, in fine playing condition, with a firm price of $300. I am writing this to find out if anyone has any experience with these instruments and can tell me what they think.

    It is fifty years old and solid wood, but I have enough instruments to know that sometimes instruments just play better than their heritage or genetic makeup would indicate. I have an all-plywood baritone uke that sings with the right strings. And sometimes the reverse is true.

    I'll be able to take a look at the instrument but not play much, as it is currently tuned in fifths and I only play fourths. If I get it, it will be restrung Chicago or my current odd-ball super-sized uke tuning.

    Thanks for impressions and suggestions.

    Aaron
    Last edited by Aaron Coe; Jan-31-2016 at 10:47am.

  2. #2
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201

    Are you sure it's a Sovereign model mandolin? Can you post a picture of it? To be honest, there isn't a single Harmony mandolin built after about 1930 that I'd pay half that for.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  3. #3

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201

    Thanks, Mike. It's a tenor guitar. I appreciate your feedback, just the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. (or the opposite- they're amazing, run out and get it now!!!)

  4. #4
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201

    OK, I didn't notice the section. A tenor guitar is different. OK, that would be a Harmony Sovereign 1201T. That's why I couldn't find it. That seems to be the high end of that's model's history of recent sales on eBay.

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=...&LH_Complete=1

    That should still be a solid wood guitar. Does it have a hard case?
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  5. #5

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201

    It has a hard case, but not the original hard case, which is fine with me. I have no interest in instruments for the sake of collecting, just players. I'll edit the title and OP to better indicate the model.

  6. #6
    Registered User fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Guernsey... small island just off the coast of France
    Posts
    1,764

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201

    I would have a quick strum on it first, just look up a couple of two finger chords, that should be enough to see how it sounds.
    I would love one myself, as long as it doesn't have any loose braces or a separating neck joint etc. I would say it will only go up in value!
    If it is in good playing condition, it would fetch double (or more) that price in the UK.... good luck

  7. #7
    Registered User MdJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    154

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Coe View Post
    Hi all. I am so grateful for the wealth of information on this forum and really glad to be a part of it. I recently got bitten by the tenor guitar bug and have found myself playing more than I ever have before whether it be ukulele or guitar.

    There is a 1966 Harmony Sovereign 1201T for sale about an hour from me, in fine playing condition, with a firm price of $300. I am writing this to find out if anyone has any experience with these instruments and can tell me what they think.

    It is fifty years old and solid wood, but I have enough instruments to know that sometimes instruments just play better than their heritage or genetic makeup would indicate. I have an all-plywood baritone uke that sings with the right strings. And sometimes the reverse is true.

    I'll be able to take a look at the instrument but not play much, as it is currently tuned in fifths and I only play fourths. If I get it, it will be restrung Chicago or my current odd-ball super-sized uke tuning.

    Thanks for impressions and suggestions.

    Aaron
    I am a fan of these harmony flattops ..... I don't own one... Yet ....but the two i have picked up and played felt great, sounded great and i would not hesitate myself... The great Spider Murphy plays one too. From what i understand, the big question on these is always neck angle due to the absence of truss rod.... I would say 300 for one in nice shape with good angle would be very reasonable and you would probably end up with an instrument with bettor tone, comparable playablility and greater 'cool' factor than a contemporary chinese built axe from ibanez or blueridge.....

    Best

    MdJ

  8. #8
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201

    I wouldn't worry about having the original hard case. There probably wasn't one. These things hung in pawn shops in Portland, Oregon when new when I was younger and I never saw one with a hard case. In our town those were the stores that sold Harmony instruments. The regular music houses didn't sell Harmony instruments. I generally saw them with a soft or chipboard case that didn't fit it. If it comes with a decent case I'd consider that a plus.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  9. #9
    Registered User bbcee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    499

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    I just made my last payment on an early 60's 1201T and am awaiting delivery. Apparently it has a slight bow in the neck, but not unplayable. My plan is to restring & tune like an OM, but I'll putz around with regular tenor tuning first to see if we bond that way.

    I'll let you know my impressions, @Aaron. They're supposed to be nicely-made, solid wood guitars. In the meantime, download some two finger tenor guitar chords as mentioned above and you'll be strumming.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcee View Post
    I just made my last payment on an early 60's 1201T and am awaiting delivery. Apparently it has a slight bow in the neck, but not unplayable. My plan is to restring & tune like an OM, but I'll putz around with regular tenor tuning first to see if we bond that way.

    I'll let you know my impressions, @Aaron. They're supposed to be nicely-made, solid wood guitars. In the meantime, download some two finger tenor guitar chords as mentioned above and you'll be strumming.
    Thanks bbcee. I'm curious to hear what you think.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Glendora, CA
    Posts
    518

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    I agree with MdJ about the neck angle. I've looked at a couple of these Harmony flat tops and they both needed neck resets. That's a fairly expensive repair. If the one you're going to look at needs a reset, then I don't think it would warrant a $300 purchase price.

    I have owned a couple of solid wood Kay flat tops that looked nearly identical to the Harmony, and they were bright and loud, a lot of fun to play.
    Steve



    "They're approaching. That's very forward of them."

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    1,616

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Aaron,

    Doesn't hurt to look, although I think it would have to be a 1-in-a-hundred example or better to be worth $300.

    I will say that I love old Harmony guitars, and own several flattops and archtops as old or older than '66, and I still look at many that appear for sale online. I'm partial to the H165. All Harmony-made guitars, until the early '70s when they were outsourced, are solid wood. The better flattops especially can have really pretty good sound. The downside is they are 99.9% guaranteed to have shortcomings and playability problems, UNLESS (and this would be a lucky break), a previous loving owner has already carried out a neck reset or other neck work on the guitar.

    The line in your OP that jumps out at me is "in fine playing condition" - How have you been able to judge this, other than the seller's description? Until you see it, just take that with a handful of salt. This could be a real exception - except it most likely is not. I have really only ever seen a couple old Harmonies that were truly in good playing condition, although there are certainly some that are tolerably playable. But I continue to look at nearly every one that appears, in case it's a sleeper.


    What I have learned over the years is that Harmony used very shallow neck angle, and very low saddles on the NEW flattops, so there is always very little room for adjustment. And of course the steel-reinforced necks bend just like on lots of other guitars. After 50 yrs the results can be expected. 99% will tend to have is a bad neck angle, excessive neck relief, or usually both. The saddle on this model, and others, is typically just a simple guitar fret set in the bridge, with no compensation done (or possible).

    I really think a fair value guitar like this is ~$150 if it is tolerably playable, maybe a little more. I know one doesn't see many priced this way any more. But I'll be interested to hear what you think of it. Make sure it is tuned to pitch - doesn't matter so much what tuning - and look at, and measure, action and relief and try to judge whether it's acceptable and will be fun to play. If not, you might be better putting the same money into a Blueridge with a truss rod and nice tall saddle, even though it won't be as cool.
    Last edited by acousticphd; Feb-02-2016 at 3:49pm. Reason: typos
    Jeff Rohrbough
    "Listen louder, play softer"

  13. #13

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Okay, I owned one of those. The problems with the 1201T are: 1. neck angle (mine and every one I've seen needed a neck reset because there is no truss rod and 50 years of string tension will take its toll) 2. the screwed-in non-compensated bridge (intonation suffers most audibly) and 3. the stiff ladder-braced top (okay, I know some people don't mind that sound). I spent a lot of money (more than I'd like to admit) "improving" mine: a neck re-set, new glued-on compensated bridge and other repairs that were done very well but yielded only a mediocre-sounding tenor guitar bettered, IMHO, by the far less cool-looking Kala or Ibanez tenors you can buy for $300. I think the Harmony (and Kay) archtop tenors are nifty, but the flat-tops fall (er) flat.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RussianDragon For This Useful Post:


  15. #14

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Quote Originally Posted by RussianDragon View Post
    Okay, I owned one of those. The problems with the 1201T are: 1. neck angle (mine and every one I've seen needed a neck reset because there is no truss rod and 50 years of string tension will take its toll) 2. the screwed-in non-compensated bridge (intonation suffers most audibly) and 3. the stiff ladder-braced top (okay, I know some people don't mind that sound). I spent a lot of money (more than I'd like to admit) "improving" mine: a neck re-set, new glued-on compensated bridge and other repairs that were done very well but yielded only a mediocre-sounding tenor guitar bettered, IMHO, by the far less cool-looking Kala or Ibanez tenors you can buy for $300. I think the Harmony (and Kay) archtop tenors are nifty, but the flat-tops fall (er) flat.
    Not to cause too much thread drift, but have you played the Kala? I have a baritone uke from them, and while not very pretty, it's quite a pretty sounding instrument. I have wondered about that Kala tenor.

    It seems that there are a few Ibanez's in all laminate and solid-top, a few Blueridge solid-tops, the Kala, and that's more or less it for acoustic, factory-produced tenors? I know Martin has (had) a tenor, still available at Elderly- a solid wood instrument (5-15T, I think).

    I have loved playing an all-laminate Ibanez. It's terrific fun and while I'm not the least bit unhappy with it or the purchase, of course it makes me wonder about what's next...

  16. #15

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    By the way, there's tons of great information here and I am really grateful for all the feedback. Thanks to all.

  17. #16
    Registered User bbcee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    499

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Well, this has been an informative thread for me too.

    I received the Harmony a little while ago. My first thought on unboxing it was, "Mojo!" My second was, "Wow, that's some neck bow!". The string distance at the 12th fret is pretty big - shoulda thought to ask that before committing.

    I'm also seeing some neck joint separation, so I'm not sure I'll keep it, although shipping costs will be pretty grim to send it back. I'll chalk this one up to lessons learned and to ask more questions on this forum.

  18. #17
    Registered User fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Guernsey... small island just off the coast of France
    Posts
    1,764

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Should of bought a Blueridge

  19. #18
    Registered User bbcee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    499

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    This may sound like the wrong reason, fox, but I really wanted an American-made instrument. I have a BR-140 and it's a good-sounding guitar, but... it's just a Chinese-made guitar. I liked that me & the Harmony were about the same age as well.

    However, for my price point, it looks like I'm confined to a Kala, Ibanez or BR, darnit.

  20. #19
    Registered User fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Guernsey... small island just off the coast of France
    Posts
    1,764

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Yeah I understand, I bought an archtop harmony a few years back, it cost me £300 (about $450) and it was in a poor shape when it arrived. I have completely rebuilt it now but I can honestly tell you that my BR40 sounds as good as any other tenor I own or have played.

  21. #20

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Chicago Music Exchange just listed a 1201T. It's a bit overpriced but does have a replaced bridge (albeit a non-compensated one)and a reset neck, here: http://www.chicagomusicexchange.com/...-natural-1960s

  22. #21
    Registered User bbcee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    499

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    I did in the end decide to keep my Harmony - my luthier friend straightened the neck bow and shaved down the saddle a mite. It will need a proper neck reset one day, but it's fine for now. I've got it tuned GDAE using the proper strings, but I think it sounded better in CGDA. Fun times ahead, but man, what a workout for the pinkie!

    RE: Chicago Music Exchange's listing - it seems like that's actually a decent deal for the work that's been done. Seems like that's what they're going for these days.

  23. #22

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Coe View Post
    Not to cause too much thread drift, but have you played the Kala? I have a baritone uke from them, and while not very pretty, it's quite a pretty sounding instrument. I have wondered about that Kala tenor.
    I found a pretty minty 60's Harmony Montery Tenor a while back but have been wanting a tenor with a 21" neck, which the Kala has. A local fellow had a Kala and wanted a longer scale for the Irish music he played.

    We met and played with each others instruments for a while and I can honestly say I was glad to leave with my Harmony. While they get trashed quite a bit, they are MIA with all solids woods and if you find one in good condition, they can be made to play and sound very sweet.

    The Kala felt and sounded like a toy in comparison.
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  24. #23

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Quote Originally Posted by Verne Andru View Post
    I found a pretty minty 60's Harmony Montery Tenor a while back but have been wanting a tenor with a 21" neck, which the Kala has. A local fellow had a Kala and wanted a longer scale for the Irish music he played.

    We met and played with each others instruments for a while and I can honestly say I was glad to leave with my Harmony. While they get trashed quite a bit, they are MIA with all solids woods and if you find one in good condition, they can be made to play and sound very sweet.

    The Kala felt and sounded like a toy in comparison.
    The Harmony Monterey Tenor, I believe, is an archtop, and, as I mentioned before, the Harmony (and Kay) archtops are way better than the flattops. I also think the Monterey's neck is steel reinforced so is much less likely to suffer from the terrible neck angles that plague the 1201T.

  25. #24

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    Yes, the Monterey is an archtop. I didn't realize there was that much of a difference in the build quality.

    Mike Edgerton, who appears to know more about Harmony than anyone, said in the absence of a sticker stating there is steel reinforcement assume there is none. Mine and others I've seen are sticker-less.
    VerneAndru.com | oKee.ComX

    - ---==< V >==--- -

  26. #25
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,875

    Default Re: Harmony Sovereign 1201T

    It would be a late Monterey to have the Steel Reinforced Neck. They didn't all have them. The one I bought new in 67 didn't have a steel reinforced neck. I proved that when I dropped it and broke the neck off. Generally the difference between the regular Harmony instruments and the Monterey's was more on of of trim levels.

    By the way, it's not a tenor but here is a 1936 catalog page for a Monterey mandolin.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Monterey.jpg 
Views:	118 
Size:	48.9 KB 
ID:	143730  
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •