Why Does Gibson Favor Sitka?

[DataNick]

if Gibson is producing 30-40 mandolins in a year, let's say 36, that is only 3 mandolins a month! ( plus or minus)

The 30-40 number covers F9s, F5Gs, Ferns, Goldrushs.

Then add in the 4-5 MMs, 5 or so Sam Bush models, and maybe 10 or so special orders; all per year.

It's really not hard to figure out if you pay attention to stocking inventory announcements from TMS and Janet Davis, David Harvey's Facebook postings of new mandolins, account for what could be "ordered" thru Guitar Center, etc. and add it all up over the course of a year; then confirm that general number with a Gibson rep at NAMM.

[Spruce]

That is what Mr C F Martin himself told me when I asked, anyway...and he was there....

Which "C. F. Martin" are you referring to?
'Chris' Martin IV, his dad, or his dad?...
Obviously, it wasn't Chris' great-great-great-grandfather...

Just curious...

[almeriastrings]

Which "C. F. Martin" are you referring to?
'Chris' Martin IV, his dad, or his dad?...
Obviously, it wasn't Chris' great-great-great-grandfather...

Just curious...

No, I may be getting in a bit, but quite that old

C. F. Martin III

[DataNick]

Not if you include the Pava line!

Actually pretty close: I doubt that Tom Ellis is carving more than 25 mandolins a year these days; that's about 2/month which seems pretty close to me. If Pava produces 40/year, then their combined total would be 65, which is pretty close to what Gibson is doing these days...of course this is all speculation, but I bet I'm not too far off...

[Spruce]

No, I may be getting in a bit, but quite that old

C. F. Martin III

Got it...
Do you remember anything else from that conversation regarding wood??
Curious as to whether they were bringing in logs (like they did with rosewood), or buying already milled sets...
I ran into a mill in Dolgeville, NY, that said they supplied red spruce to Martin (and Steinway), but never got an answer as to whether they were shipping logs, billets, or sets...

[Canoedad]

Tom posted here recently that their schedule is one mandolin per week. And I think that is Pava/Ellis combined.

[DataNick]

Tom posted here recently that their schedule is one mandolin per week. And I think that is Pava/Ellis combined.

52/year would be pretty close in number to my estimation of Gibson's 60 or so per year. What folks don't realize, as that Gibson rep confirmed to me, is that Gibson mandolins is really a small shop environment these days, and they don't crank out a whole lot of mandolins.

Think about one mandolin per week as compared to Gibson-Montana cranking out five F5Ls/week. The production of the Bozeman years and to an extent the Derrington/Pre-Flood Harvey eras has changed dramatically post-flood.

[Drew Egerton]

Is Sitka really that undesirable to so many people? I have a killer Larrivee D60 guitar with a Sitka top. I've seen a couple of people defend it here, but the majority of the thread sounds like it is a significantly inferior option.

I don't know enough about the different species to say either way. My Flatbush has a "European spruce" top so I don't really have much first hand with Sitka v. the others discussed.

[Luna Pick]

In starting the thread I didn't mean to imply inferiority or superiority. My 2 dreadnoughts, former Sam Bush F5 and probably my Givens are all Sitka.

It just seems curious to me why, generally speaking, the nameplate mandolin builder favors Sitka, and all the others, including many absolutely incredible builders, don't. Just sayin'. . .

[George R. Lane]

I believe that Givens used Englemann on his mandolins.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Is Sitka really that undesirable to so many people? I have a killer Larrivee D60 guitar with a Sitka top. I've seen a couple of people defend it here, but the majority of the thread sounds like it is a significantly inferior option.

I think Almeriastrings answered your question pretty well in an earlier post (quoted below).

Sitka is a pretty darned good top wood. There are some seriously nice guitars and mandolins built with it.

One area where it has an advantage, is that is easier to source cosmetically excellent sitka than cosmetically excellent Red spruce, certainly on wider boards, such as for guitar. To marketing departments (and many customers) cosmetics count, so that can be part of the equation.

That as certainly one of the key reasons C F Martin switched to Sitka circa 1945/6. Getting decent looking Red spruce tops was proving very difficult. Customers wanted tight, even grain, with 'silking'.. and finding wide boards of Red with that was just getting impossible at the time. That is what Mr C F Martin himself told me when I asked, anyway...and he was there....

The question/title of this thread is "Why Does Gibson Favor Sitka?" So far, to me at least, the answer seems to be 'cost and availability'.

Martin and Gibson may (do) charge a premium for Adirondack Spruce Tops. That doesn't necessarily prove Sitka inferior.

[Spruce]

I believe that Givens used Englemann on his mandolins.

He used what he had...
...and when he lived over in Idaho, he had an Engelmann source.
I sold him Sitka, and I know he used it...

Same with the maple he chose to use--a lot of it is unfigured lumber from the hardware store.
The most mundane wood I've ever seen in any builder's work.

[Flame Maple]

It seems strange that this topic has appeared today as only yesterday I was seeking advice as to which top would be best for my new Mandolin .

[sunburst]

Is Sitka really that undesirable to so many people?

It is to some, and the reason is... once again... marketing.
All through the 1940s, '50s, '60s, '70s and into the '80s sitka was the top wood. European spruce was mostly used by violin makers and a few classical guitar makers, engelmann as a tonewood came along later (when was that, Bruce?) and red spruce didn't make a resurgence until around 1990. When I started building instruments, "everybody" was using sitka spruce for "everything".
Lloyd Loar specified red spruce for the F5 model mandolin, Martin bought locally produced spruce, and so used a lot of red spruce in the "golden era", and those two things, along with marketing claims by recent builders and wood sellers have convinced many people that there are easily distinguishable sound differences between species, and that sitka is not up to the level of red or even engellman spruce.
Here's a baseless claim, well, lets say it's more speculation than claim, and it is based on my observance of human nature:
If sitka spruce was rare and hard to get, and thus more expensive than other spruces; if other spruce had been the standard for years and sitka was a late-comer to lutherie, people would clamor to get it, pay extra for it, and claim sound superior to all others. If the '60s Martin guitars were the "golden age" standard instead of the '30s Martins, people would be sure that part of the reason was the sitka spruce used.

[Spruce]

...engelmann as a tonewood came along later (when was that, Bruce?)...

The late 70's-early 80's or so?...
The Sante Fe Spruce Co. was the first outfit I know of that marketed "Engelmann"...
I went after it the week I read that GAL article...

Here's a baseless claim, well, lets say it's more speculation than claim, and it is based on my observance of human nature:
If sitka spruce was rare and hard to get, and thus more expensive than other spruces; if other spruce had been the standard for years and sitka was a late-comer to lutherie, people would clamor to get it, pay extra for it, and claim sound superior to all others.

Can you say "Lutz"?

[DataNick]

...Lloyd Loar specified red spruce for the F5 model mandolin, Martin bought locally produced spruce, and so used a lot of red spruce in the "golden era", and those two things, along with marketing claims by recent builders and wood sellers have convinced many people that there are easily distinguishable sound differences between species, and that sitka is not up to the level of red or even engellman spruce...

You know the Gibson catalog from 1923 describes "Norway Spruce" as what is used for the top of the F5 Master Mandolin. From this description I culled off a website, I wonder if Norway(European) Spruce is for all intensive purposes "Red Spruce"?

"...Norways are the dominant evergreen in Europe, and although it is not native to the US, it is very commonly planted throughout the NorthEast and as far south as Tennessee. "

Is this "Norway" that Loar/Gibson was calling in the catalog, later designated as "Red" spruce?

[DataNick]

More on Norway Spruce from Wikipedia: "In North America, Norway spruce is widely planted, specifically in the northeastern, Pacific Coast, and Rocky Mountain states, as well as in southeastern Canada. It is naturalised in some parts of North America. There are naturalised populations occurring from Connecticut to Michigan, and it is probable that they occur elsewhere.[9] Norway spruces are more tolerant of hot, humid weather than many conifers which do not thrive except in cool-summer areas and they will grow up to USDA Growing Zone 8."

Picea abies Wikipedia

[sunburst]

Norway spruce (Picea abies) is not the same species as red spruce (Picea rubens), and the Norway spruce that has grown in the US is generally very fast-grown wood in open stands, and thus has wide growth rings and abundant knots and is not suitable for tops. The wood of European spruce (Picea abies) can be indistinguishable from red spruce wood, however.
There is a well known spec sheet that was supposedly found behind a file cabinet at Gibson or some such, on which Adirondack or West Virginia red spruce is specified for the F5 model, but Bruce (among others) thinks there might have been some Euro spruce in some of them.

[Spruce]

There is a well known spec sheet that was supposedly found behind a file cabinet at Gibson or some such, on which Adirondack or West Virginia red spruce is specified for the F5 model, but Bruce (among others) thinks there might have been some Euro spruce in some of them.

Geez, who knows??

[Jeff Hildreth]

Anyone else remember in the '80s and '90s when Englemann (sp) was being shipped to European wood hustlers and returned as "German Silver Spruce" ?

Red spruce was used when it was local, cheap and easily available. Sitka is used because it is local (relatively because of improved transportation) cheap and available.

Anyone remember when bear claw was considered inferior until someone ( who shall remain unnamed) suggested to CFM IV that is should be used on the CEO V and therefore started to become desirable ?

The German Classical builder Hauser used bear claw frequently.

I owned two original Givens an A-3 and an A6.. one was a plain Jane and was killer.. the other was high graded maple and spruce and very fine inlays and was just ok.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Norway spruce (Picea abies) is not the same species as red spruce (Picea rubens), and the Norway spruce that has grown in the US is generally very fast-grown wood in open stands, and thus has wide growth rings and abundant knots and is not suitable for tops. The wood of European spruce (Picea abies) can be indistinguishable from red spruce wood, however.

So...Norway Spruce is Picea abies. And European Spruce is Picea abies. Same species of wood, but because of the location where they grow, they have entirely different characteristics?

[sunburst]

So...Norway Spruce is Picea abies. And European Spruce is Picea abies. Same species of wood, but because of the location where they grow, they have entirely different characteristics?

Happens all the time. Any tree that grows in an open area will be very different from a tree of the same species in a dense forest. Big differences in altitude, weather, soil, aspect of slope, etc. where the tree grew can cause wood to be different. In the case of Euro spruce, it is mostly used as an ornamental in the US, and few, if any have grown in dense forests for centuries like the trees in Europe that produce desired wood for instrument tops.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Weber's top line "F" style is their 'Fern' model. Mine's Sitka Spruce & it sounds as good as any 'modern' mandolin that i've heard to date. Weber will custom build one with a Red Spruce top if asked,obviously at an increased cost. I know that because one Cafe member who's recently ''returned to the fold'',Kevin Briggs,used to own one. Obviously,without being able to play one against the other side by side,i've no idea what the tonal differences would be,but Kevin was far more than pleased with his,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

Got it...
Do you remember anything else from that conversation regarding wood??
Curious as to whether they were bringing in logs (like they did with rosewood), or buying already milled sets...
I ran into a mill in Dolgeville, NY, that said they supplied red spruce to Martin (and Steinway), but never got an answer as to whether they were shipping logs, billets, or sets...

I remember some of it. I was specifically interested in asking a few particular things at the time... as this was mid 70's and I was working for a tonewood supplier in Europe back then. Martin were, at that time, installing a new mill in the Sycamore street factory, but this was going to be for cutting rosewood and other hardwoods, not top wood. I asked why not top wood, and he said they can buy that easily from many sources "these days"... but they wanted to be able to cut their own rosewood, etc. In fact, that did not last long as India and Brazil banned the export of whole logs shortly after they got the mill going. Going back in time, I asked if he could tell me anything about the top woods used in previous eras. His recollection was they did buy in well quartered, nice-grained sawn lumber boards and billets wherever they were available, direct from various mills and then re-sawed for tops at the factory. It was 'cheaper' than buying in pre-cut tops and you "could get a lot of nice tops" from these lumber boards. He said they were doing this in pre-war days, and well into the 1950's. They sourced boards as 8 X4" or 10 X 3" (etc) after "picking" them (I am not sure from who exactly). Some of it was "construction lumber"..... also "government surplus building supplies".... apparently when the aviation industry turned to metal aircraft, a lot of fine grade lumber was left behind... this was re-sawn to guitar tops. Red-spruce was the preferred material up to the mid-40's, when it became difficult to source in adequate quality. He told me that he would have liked to change to Englemann instead, as he liked it "better" than Sitka (!) but could not find reliable sources in the quantity they needed. I believe he said the same thing in a 1980's interview with Dana Bourgeois.... he liked the grain, the colour and he thought it "sounded good". They did manage to obtain it "occasionally", and if they could, they used it. They got a relatively "large" amount in 1953, but also some supplies earlier than that, but not in quantity (I have a 1950 D28 myself that has a very unusual top... very pale yellow... hard to be be 100%, but I think it very probably Englemann). He also told me he did not feel there was any significant tonal difference between EIR and Brazilian rosewood... and when they made that switch, no-one considered it important... as far as they were concerned, it was just "rosewood".

To the best of my recollection, that is what was said.. he was a very polite and helpful gentleman, as was Mike Longworth.

This is my D-28 that I suspect has an early example of an Englemann top.

[Teak]

I believe that Givens used Englemann on his mandolins.

Bob used both Englemann and Sitka. When I phoned him in 1978 to order an A model, he told me it would have a Sitka spruce top. It was probably later on when he began to use Englemann spruce.