European Spruce and its variants

[red7flag]

When I went on the Music Emporium web site, they had three Collings with "Italian Spruce". When I bought a Lebeda, it had "German Spruce". I have seen other instruments with "European Spruce". Are these fairly compatible to each other? How do they compare tone wise to Adirondack, Engelmann and Sittka. I came close to pulling a trigger on an "Italian Spruce" Collings, but went with the Engelmann.

[DataNick]

This article/chart is useful I believe...

tonewood spruce

[Spruce]

When I went on the Music Emporium web site, they had three Collings with "Italian Spruce". When I bought a Lebeda, it had "German Spruce". I have seen other instruments with "European Spruce". Are these fairly compatible to each other?

They are all the same species, Picea abies...

This article/chart is useful I believe...

tonewood spruce

Tons of misinformation on that page...

"Outside guitars, spruce is probably the most used topwood of all, because it is the least flexible hardwood."

Spruce ain't a hardwood.

" Below is a ranking of most common topwood species, arranged from the most flexible to the stiffest species -the greater the number, the further it will flex."

There are floppy examples of European Spruce, and stiff examples of Western Red Cedar...
You can't generalize about this stuff. You need to judge each and every set of wood--regardless of species--on it's own merit.

"Englemann spruce (Picea EngelmannII)"

Gawd, at least spell "Engelmann" correctly...

" 'Adirondack'...has one of the best stiffness to weight ratios of all spruces and is very hard. It is softer than Sitka and requires a bit more care, but this slightly softer wood results in a top that is less stiff and offers a quicker response, with more snap to the note. It is also slightly lighter in weight than Sitka Spruce, weighing approximately 26 pounds per cubic foot. Adirondack has been unavailable since the mid-1940s and stock has only recently become large enough to be used again."

I don't know where to begin...

Yeah, take this whole page with another grain of proverbial salt...

[peter.coombe]

Yep, they are all the same species, but grow in different parts of Europe. "German" spruce almost certainly never grew in Germany, but has been processed by one of the German wood suppliers so you never know where it came from. There are differences, probably caused by different growing conditions and a bit of genetics thrown in, but they all sound like European Spruce (with maybe some subtle differences) so I would not be too worried about what they call it. In any case, there are massive differences from tree to tree from the same area. Only if you buy close to the source can you really be sure where the wood comes from. My experience is that I can hear differences from wood that was harvested in different parts of Europe that seem to be consistent, but it is a pretty small sample so take that with a pinch of salt.

[Oliver A.]

Personally I've never understood why musicians discuss and fret so much over the species of spruce on an instrument. Let luthiers worry about that. When choosing a mandolin, let your ears tell you if you like the sound it makes and let your hands tell you how easy it is to play.
Any of the commonly used spruces can produce awesome sounding instruments. I would be amazed if anyone could consistently tell me the type of spruce on an instrument by only hearing it. True, certain spruces have tendencies toward a particular end of the spectrum but they are only tendencies. When I'm building an instrument for a client, I'll keep their preferences in mind when choosing the top wood but when you are buying an instrument that is already built, the only question for you is, does it please you? If it does, it's the instrument for you. No other prejudices need by applied.

[Ivan Kelsall]

For me,it's interesting to know the why's & wherefors of my mandolins,purely for the info.. Ultimately,regardless of where the woods came from or their species,it's the conjunction of the 'whole' that's important. I'd bet that all of our top luthiers can produce a superb sounding mandolin from any species of Spruce - different tonal properties,certainly, but still all good.
On asking Bruce Weber what the top/back wood is on my 'Fern',he told me Sitka Spruce,where it grew up i've no idea. My Lebeda is ''German Spruce'' & the wood on my Ellis is unknown to me,i didn't ask Jeff,I just play it,but judging from his website,the A5 De-Luxe models are Adirondak Red Spruce,
Ivan

[Shelagh Moore]

"Englemann spruce (Picea EngelmannII)"

Gawd, at least spell "Engelmann" correctly...

Picea engelmannii is actually the correct Latin name.

[almeriastrings]

Yep, they are all the same species, but grow in different parts of Europe. "German" spruce almost certainly never grew in Germany, but has been processed by one of the German wood suppliers so you never know where it came from..

+1.

I visited some of the mills in Bavaria back the 70's, and saw all kinds of strange descriptions and "optimistic" labeling going on! Some accidentally, some not so....

i.e. "Swiss Pine" that that had never been outside Germany...., and some of the "best flamed Italian Maple" was actually European Sycamore purchased from a person I knew who ran a sawmill in Yorkshire, UK! Oh, and some "50 year air dried" was kiln baked....

Funny old business!!! I got the impression some of these guys would do well in used car sales...

[FLATROCK HILL]

When I went on the Music Emporium web site, they had three Collings with "Italian Spruce". When I bought a Lebeda, it had "German Spruce". I have seen other instruments with "European Spruce". Are these fairly compatible to each other? How do they compare tone wise to Adirondack, Engelmann and Sittka. I came close to pulling a trigger on an "Italian Spruce" Collings, but went with the Engelmann.

If my family is any indication...The 'German' is quite rigid. The 'Italian' is more flexible and expressive.
And though they are both European, they aren't necessariy compatible.

(I'll join Timothy in the corner)

[jasona]

Spruce, as a general (really general) rule*, could you say that red has a pretty dry tone with few overtones, whereas Englemann has a lot of shimmering overtones, and Italian somewhere in the middle?


(*Immediately as I say this I think of Don Julian's Northfield that is red that sounds Englemann-like to me and I realize I should just give up with generalizations)

[Spruce]

Spruce, as a general (really general) rule*, could you say that red has a pretty dry tone with few overtones, whereas Englemann has a lot of shimmering overtones, and Italian somewhere in the middle?

Nope.

Immediately as I say this I think of Don Julian's Northfield that is red that sounds Englemann-like to me and I realize I should just give up with generalizations...

Yep.

[jasona]

Well, there it is then

Now, on the topic of "opening up"...

[red7flag]

I am still interested in the Italian spruce and am curious, in general, what are people in the Cafe's experiences with Italian spruce and how does it compare with Adirondack, Engelmann, Sittka. I read this thread that I started over tonight, but have no better idea than when I first started the thread. I have never played an "Italian Spruce" mandolin family instrument. As I mentioned, I had a "German" spruce Lebeda that had a classical type of tone, but I have now idea as to what factors provided that tone. I just have no reference point with Italian spruce.

[Spruce]

I am still interested in the Italian spruce and am curious, in general, what are people in the Cafe's experiences with Italian spruce and how does it compare with Adirondack, Engelmann, Sittka. I read this thread that I started over tonight, but have no better idea than when I first started the thread. I have never played an "Italian Spruce" mandolin family instrument. As I mentioned, I had a "German" spruce Lebeda that had a classical type of tone, but I have now idea as to what factors provided that tone. I just have no reference point with Italian spruce.

Well..........

I don't think there is anyone on Planet Earth who--when presented with sample billets of
"Italian", Adirondack, Engelmann, Black, or White Spruce--could tell them apart from one another, or ID them *accurately*...
I can't. I don't think Bruce Hoadley could. I know the Forest Products Laboratory in Wisconsin can't, because I've tried...they failed.
(Sitka is another deal)...

So-ooo, if you can't tell the difference in raw billet form, how the hell can you expect to tell the difference when they are in a mandolin??

YMMV...

EDIT: DNA might be a way of ID'ing spruce species, but the above should be the default when discussing spruce species attributes in luthiery...
Man, I wish I could make generalizations about spruce species, but I've tried and I can't...

[red7flag]

Spruce, thank you for your candor. I have a two follow-up questions. One, you mention Sittka as being "another deal". Could you explain that comment. While I love woods, I am have little first hand experience, so you may have to explain. Second, and this one is a bit dicier, if what you say is true, and I have little doubt about that, then much of the conversation about addi versus engelmann versus different European spruces (eliminating sittka, which is another deal), is mostly conjecture. So my question is how do you decide how a piece of spruce will sound on a mandolin? Do you test density? Grain pattern (wide vs narrow and the different composites (wide on the outside and narrow on the inside))? Or is it just by that subjective woodman quality of experience. Thanks in advance.

[Spruce]

...you mention Sittka as being "another deal". Could you explain that comment.

One is able to ID Sitka both in billet form, and under varnish...

So my question is how do you decide how a piece of spruce will sound on a mandolin? Do you test density? Grain pattern (wide vs narrow and the different composites (wide on the outside and narrow on the inside))? Or is it just by that subjective woodman quality of experience.

Grain pattern is cosmetic, IMHO, and does not really denote how a piece of wood will sound...
Density, weight, how hard it is to the fingernail, etc. are all important...

For the record, I--and just about every other luthier I know--have very strong opinions as to what certain spruce species can and will do...
I'm merely pointing out that there's a lot of Engelmann out there, for instance, that can have the same attributes we normally associate with Adi...hard, heavy, with uneven graining...

Touchy topic, no?

[red7flag]

Spruce - "For the record, I--and just about every other luthier I know--have very strong opinions as to what certain spruce species can and will do..."

That being said, what "can and will" you expect Italian spruce to do?

[pops1]

I have a mandolin with Italian spruce for the top. It sounds really wonderful, but took a long time for the G to be where I wanted it. It just lacked for years, now it is a MAS killer.

[Spruce]

That being said, what "can and will" you expect Italian spruce to do?

Anything...

Picea abies can be hard, and it can be soft...
It can be heavy, or very light...
It can display bearclaw figuring, or not...
It can be very wide grained, or tight...
It can display "that" uneven graining that we associate with Red Spruce...

But most importantly, I wouldn't bet that "Italian spruce" even grew in Italy, just as "German Spruce" usually doesn't grow in Germany...but they are the same species of spruce.

There are several fine suppliers of tonewood in Italy (Rivolta comes to mind) who procure spruce from all over it's range...
They then send it to makers in North America, where it magically becomes "Italian spruce"...
So-ooo, I have a problem with the "Italian spruce" designation, and always have...
It's Picea abies AFAIC...

OK, let's say a mando maker orders a dozen mando tops from Rivolta...
He or she might specify that they like lightweight wood with tight graining and bearclaw, and that's what they get...
So-ooo, now we have a maker who insists that "Italian spruce" is lightweight and has tight graining...oh, and a lot of it has bearclaw...
But that opinion is filtered, and doesn't represent the species at all...

(Can you tell I have a lot of time on my hands here...)

I have a mandolin with Italian spruce for the top. It sounds really wonderful, but took a long time for the G to be where I wanted it.

Yeah, all mandolins with Italian spruce tops take forever for the G (and sometimes D) strings to fully blossom...
(...just kidding).

[colorado_al]

I don't know anything about Italian spruce, besides the fact that the 2 best sounding Collings mandolins I have ever played both had Italian spruce tops.

[Spruce]

I don't know anything about Italian spruce, besides the fact that the 2 best sounding Collings mandolins I have ever played both had Italian spruce tops.

So-ooo, one can sorta make that generalization about Italian spruce in Collings mandolins, for the aforementioned reasons...
I sat down one day with 6-7 new Collings A models, with the species designations on the label. After awhile, I could pick out the woods...

But you can't generalize and say that species is gonna perform like that regardless of the maker...
And yet we do it all the time...

[red7flag]

Just bought the Collings MT2-O from The Music Emporium. "Italian" spruce (not Spruce), birdseye maple. This is why all the discussion in the last two days. Thanks all for your information and support.

[Spruce]

I'll ask Bill the next time I see him where he gets that wood, and it might answer some questions for you...

Another cool thing to consider is consistency...
Sometimes a maker like Collings will get a whole gob of billets from the same tree, and they can really dial in how to use it...

[sunburst]

Here's an anecdote.
I recently finished two F5-style mandolins. One with a red spruce top and hard maple back-sides-neck. Hard, heavy woods all. The other mandolin has a euro spruce top (I think it came from an Italian supplier, but that is not important to me so I can't really remember off the top of my head), red maple back-sides-neck. Much lighter, softer woods all.
I carved and graduates them differently, thicker for the softer woods, thinner for the harder woods. The red spruce is heavy enough that the finished top, though thinner, is heavier than the euro top. The mandolin made from the heavier woods, top and back both carved thinner, is a heavier instrument. (Anyone guess where this is going...?)
When both were finished and strung up, as I suspected, they sound nearly the same.
I took both to a gathering of pickers, both were well received, some people said "this one is a little louder", but sometimes it was one mandolin and sometimes it was the other. In other words some people perceived one to be louder and some perceived the other to be louder.
In short, any sound differences are subtle, though the woods used were toward opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of wood that I have and use for mandolin making. This is not the first time I've built mandolins from different woods and had them sound very similar to one another.
When asked to generalize about the sound characteristics of various spruce species, care to guess what answer I am likely to give?

[Spruce]

When asked to generalize about the sound characteristics of various spruce species, care to guess what answer I am likely to give?

I dunno...
There's no such thing as a good bluegrass F5 that isn't made from Adi and hard maple...