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Thread: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

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    Mando-Afflicted lflngpicker's Avatar
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    Question Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    This violin has come our way and I am beginning to learn to play it, building on my mandolin skills and two years of violin when I was a boy in school.

    This violin has a great resonance and is fully functional. I am going to add some fine tuners, but it gets close enough to know this baby can play.

    It isn't marked except for a sticker in the upper F hole with handwritten information indicating that it was repaired, varnished and toned (intonated?) in 1936 in Elk City, OK. We know it is relatively late 20's or early thirties, but we don't know if the family member acquired it as a used instrument.

    The case seems common for other similar instruments and it works great. The back is one piece. Maybe a small shop instrument or? Can anyone steer me in the right direction based on these photos? Thank you for your kind expertise.
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    Last edited by lflngpicker; Feb-11-2016 at 5:54pm.
    2014 BRW F5 #114
    2022 Kentucky KM 950 Master Model

    YouTube Original Recording of My composition "Closer Walk"

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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    Hard to say from photos. Why not take it to a local shop to find out more? I understand the Weisshaar shop is in LA somewhere, and is world-class. Worst thing they can say is it's German factory-built.

    You should take the tension off the bow when you're not playing, or it could warp and destroy its functionality. BTW, sometimes the bows in these old fiddle cases are worth considerably more than the violin.

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    Mando-Afflicted lflngpicker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    Thanks so much, Bob. The bow is in great shape, though it is low on horse hair. It functions very well and has been in the case in storage for many decades. I will remember about relaxing it. It seems my school orchestra teacher told me that years ago! I know the bow is the original it was paired with. Where would the label generally be: could it be covered by the repair sticker placed inside the upper F?
    2014 BRW F5 #114
    2022 Kentucky KM 950 Master Model

    YouTube Original Recording of My composition "Closer Walk"

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    There's also Benning Violins in Studio City, or Thomas Metzler in Glendale (a little closer to Riverside). Weisshaar's shop is in L.A. proper. Clear maple back (no figure) argues against the small-shop idea, unless it's some renegade American builder. More likely factory and not very valuable.
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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    From what I can see based on just the photos I believe it is an early 20th century German trade fiddle. And not a terribly high grade one. The back is devoid of figure, and that usually means student grade. Also the "antiquing" in the finish is crudely done and symmetrical. A high quality finish would be assume tribal mimicking genuine wear spots and more subtle. The case, the chin rest, everything looks like German trade from the era. They were cranked out in great quantities back then.

    The tailpiece is too far forward. The tip of the tailpiece should rest overlapping the ebony saddle. Also it looks like real gut anchoring it, which could break without warning. I recommend replacing that with a Sacconi type synthetic tailpiece anchor.

    You don't need fine tuners if you are using synthetic strings. Except on the E string which is steel on all sets. Most synthetic strings ( Perlon) are too thick and stretchy for fine tuners. Fine tuners on all strings if you are doing an all steel set however.

    It would be very enlightening to examine the interior of the instrument which is best done with the instrument disassembled, and with a bend a light and a dental mirror. Some German instruments from that era have Spanish necks, with the neck block carved integral with the neck, and the ribs inset into slots in the sides of the neck "block". They may also have an integral bass bar carved into the top wood instead of carved separately and glued in. The corner "blocks" may also be faux or nonexistent. These were all time and cost saving measures. That being said, there are also properly made instruments from the same era. They are variable. I have seen simple ones like yours made correctly and highly flamed examples with the short cuts. If you observe any of the above shortcuts that nails it as a German trade fiddle, as there wasn't any one else using those building techniques.

    Hope this helps. I could be wrong. I'm no expert but I have seen a lot of fiddles.
    Don

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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    Mrmando got me to re thinking this. The points aren't sharp and don't point inwards like most German fiddles. The peg box is more elongated than most and the pegs aren't evenly spaced. Something a bit off about the scroll too. Additionally, the vast majority of German trade fiddles have at least some flame, because flame maple was easy to get and the fiddles with prettier wood sold faster.

    My new opinion is American work by an unknown maker, unknown age. A plain back like that is something someone like that would use.
    Don

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    Registered User houseworker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    It's definitely not a factory instrument, it looks like the first effort of a well intentioned but unskilled amateur. The work is pretty poor I'm afraid and that peg box is an absolute horror.

    The work done in Elk City may well have been at the request of the original maker, seeking professional help to finish an instrument that lacked tone. It would be no surprise if they opened it up to re-graduate the plates.

    If you're intending to fit steel strings such as Helicores, rather than adding further fine tuners you should get a Wittner Ultra tailpiece http://www.amazon.com/Wittner-918111.../dp/B000LIEPDE which also works well with ball ended Perlon strings. The Wittner tailpiece comes with a new gut.

    Be wary of fitting a new tailpiece yourself, the soundpost can easily dislodge once the tension comes off the strings. Find a luthier to do the job for you.
    Last edited by houseworker; Feb-12-2016 at 3:30am.

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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    Yes. Absolutely agree with house worker. My apologies for my hasty initial evaluation. The peg box with the unevenly spaced holes screams home work. I doubt that it's German. I let the case and chin rest influence me, but of course these were off the shelf items at the time. In my defense I would add that I have seen trade fiddles with that homemade look, since some were produced in small German workshop collectives as a cottage industry, rather than large factories. Still, it doesn't quite fit the mold.

    I really do think you have American amateur home work there. It could very well be from the teens or 20's. I base that on nothing more than the fact that violin was very popular then and lots of people were motivated to try their hand at making one. It could sound nice when properly set up, especially if it was professionally re graduated. That is most likely what is meant by "toned".
    Don

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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    Quote Originally Posted by multidon View Post
    The peg box with the unevenly spaced holes screams home work.
    Possibly, but I would have a hard time thinking that anyone who could put together a complete fiddle would go so wrong on something as simple as spacing the peg holes. Those spacings are too far off. I wonder if these were relocated at some point due to wallowing out of the original holes? It is, of course, common for older holes to be plugged and new ones reamed that are offset from the originals. Plugs in the original holes would be obvious, if present.

    If these are the original locations of the pegs, though, they're a real head-scratcher.

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    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    Were kits available at the time? If so, would there be any reason to think a kit would come without the peg holes pre-drilled?
    Emando.com: More than you wanted to know about electric mandolins.

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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

    Hey Guys -- Mrmando, Tobin, Multidon, houseworker, bobA, I am really getting an education! I am so glad to have your considered evaluation from afar. Amazingly, it plays so nicely and the tone is quite nice. I know enough about Guitars and Mandolins to know when something is playable. I am enjoying learning (with a 2 year orchestra background as a 12 year old or so) and it is going to be a long road! HaHa. I will be adding some more pictures later because it might help a bit more. My Father-in-law asked me to enjoy it or sell it. I told him it wasn't likely to be worth much but I said I would enjoy trying to learn from some of the knowledgeable friend on the MC! You did not let me down!
    2014 BRW F5 #114
    2022 Kentucky KM 950 Master Model

    YouTube Original Recording of My composition "Closer Walk"

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    Default Re: Vintage Violin: Any Experts Please Help ID

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    Prior to this thread and knowing better, I put inexpensive (steel?) strings on it (pictured). I will look into some of the needed parts some of you mentioned as possible improvements for playing and tuning. Thank you!
    Last edited by lflngpicker; Feb-13-2016 at 4:01pm. Reason: clarification
    2014 BRW F5 #114
    2022 Kentucky KM 950 Master Model

    YouTube Original Recording of My composition "Closer Walk"

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