'Red Snark' Tuners.

[chris.burcher]

I don't know if anyone has said this, but I don't really like my red snark. I got it a long time ago so it probably is an older model, but it doesn't work very well on the A and E strings on any mando I have used it on. My buddy has a black snark and I am amazed at how much better it is. It gets all the strings and the harmonics. I have not bought a black one yet as I am frugal as can be, but I do use an iPhone app called 'tuner lite' that is, except for the black snark, the best tuner I have ever used. And the lite version is free. It just doesn't do well in a jam or gig situation due to background noise.

[Austin Bob]

I'm not a huge fan of the Snarks anymore. I find they are bigger than they need to be, they tend to eat batteries, and the swivel joint is very easy to break.

I've been using the D'Addario micro lately, and they seem to work fine. They are small enough that your audience can't see them, and they take up less space in your case. The tests I've seen show them to be just as accurate as the Snarks. They don't eat batteries, and there's no swivel joint to break. Plus, you can get a two pack for $20, which makes them cheap enough to have one for every case/instrument. They seem to work equally well on my mandolin as they do my electric guitar. I will most likely buy more of them in the future.

I bought a Polytune based on the reviews here, and it was fine. The only real advantage I see to using one is for my acoustic guitar. Liturgical music often calls for a capo, and it's easy to see what string is out of tune (usually the 6th) by strumming all the strings at once. But I didn't see any real advantage to using it for tuning one string at a time. I ended up losing it, and I probably won't replace it due to the expense.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From chris.burcher - " ..it doesn't work very well on the A and E strings..."- That's a puzzle Chris !. Both the Red Snarks i have work perfectly on all 3 of my mandolins. Have you tried yours on anybody else's mandolin at all ?. Some strong 'overtones' maybe ?. The reason i bought a Red Snark in the first place was that my Intelli 500 tuners wavered around the centre 'in tune' point too much. The Snarks really seem to 'lock on' when the mandolin's in tune. I hope that this Polytune tuner that have on order will be as good,especially as it's costing over twice the price of a Snark,
Ivan

[Polecat]

...The Snarks really seem to 'lock on' when the mandolin's in tune. I hope that this Polytune tuner that have on order will be as good,especially as it's costing over twice the price of a Snark,
Ivan

I suspect (though I can't prove it), that the effect you describe as "locking on" is simply a result of the Snark being programmed with a wider frequency range it hears as "in tune" than your Intelli tuner. I had a red snark, and after it was stolen out of my case I bought a black one - with both it is possible to "tune" a course so that the snark regards both strings as in tune (with each other) although my ears tell me otherwise. I have not tried the polytune, so am not qualified to talk about it; the tuner I use (when I use one - I'm a believer in "use it or lose it", so prefer to tune by ear with a tuning fork unless circumstances, such as playing in noisy environments or onstage where it has to go quickly, prescribe otherwise), glories in the name ET-68GB and is a no-name chinese product. It is much preciser than the snark, and as you described, the display often wavers around. I've found that the best approach is to damp all the strings I'm not trying to tune (to stop sympathetic vibrations) and pluck the string in the middle, in order to maximise the fundamental:overtone ratio, which can also confuse digital tuners. It may be that TC electronics, Peterson and the other high-end tuner smiths have come up with a digital doodad which always recognizes the fundamental and makes the device easier to use, but I still regard digital tuners (and satnav devices, spellcheck software and the like) as things to help me, not to become reliant upon, and as far as I can, I do without them.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Re.mandolin tuning in general,i tune one string only to the tuner & tune the second string in unison to the first. It works very well for me that way,so that's the way i do it.
I've been having an e-mail discussion with a few Cafe colleagues re.what we hear 'directly' from the instrument & what we can / can't hear via.the same instrument having been 'recorded'. It's my opinion,that our ears are so sensitive,that we can maybe pick up on slight variations in tone that a mic. doesn't pick up on. That's the reason why i'd rather trust my ears in tuning only one string to a tuner & then my ears to tune the second string. I've tuned both strings in a pair to a tuner before now,but they never seem ''quite there'' to me.
The 'Polytune' arrived this morning & i'm very impressed with it's accuracy,however,i'm less impressed that the tuner head doesn't 'swivel'. I now have to clip it to the top or lower side of my headstock to see if 'full face'. A minor point,but it could have been engineered better IMHO. I tuned my Ellis using it,then clipped my Red Snark on & checked it. The Snark was spot on as well.
So,i now have a tuner that cost more than twice the price of a Snark,but has no advantage in it's tuning ability,& has a lesser advantage in where i can clip it to the headstock. I did expect this so = no problema senors !!,
Ivan

[Polecat]

Just out of interest, try it the other way round: tune with the snark, and check with the polytune. Assuming that the polytune has a tighter window of in-tuneness (which I am), you should find it possible to be in tune a la snark, but out of tune according to the polytune. If this isn't the case, you are right, and the polytune really is just a more expensive tool that does exactly the same job no better than the snark (which I find hard to believe).

[Drew Egerton]

I've been using the D'Addario micro lately, and they seem to work fine. They are small enough that your audience can't see them, and they take up less space in your case. The tests I've seen show them to be just as accurate as the Snarks. They don't eat batteries, and there's no swivel joint to break. Plus, you can get a two pack for $20, which makes them cheap enough to have one for every case/instrument. They seem to work equally well on my mandolin as they do my electric guitar. I will most likely buy more of them in the future.

I've been using a red Snark for a few years now with no issues really other than losing the rubber piece for a while. They sent me a new one for free, then I found the old one. I've only replaced the battery once.

I did just get a set of 4 EJ17 strings for guitar and it came with a micro tuner, which I didn't even realize at first. I gave it a try and it seems to work fine but I haven't done much A/B comparing yet. It does seem like it has a microphone that stays on so I could see it being an issue when playing with others v. the Snark's vibration setting. I like the size though.

[fatt-dad]

I don't know if anyone has said this, but I don't really like my red snark. I got it a long time ago so it probably is an older model, but it doesn't work very well on the A and E strings on any mando I have used it on. My buddy has a black snark and I am amazed at how much better it is. It gets all the strings and the harmonics. I have not bought a black one yet as I am frugal as can be, but I do use an iPhone app called 'tuner lite' that is, except for the black snark, the best tuner I have ever used. And the lite version is free. It just doesn't do well in a jam or gig situation due to background noise.

the one time my Snark acted up, I had inadvertently switched from vib to mic.

f-d

[almeriastrings]

The Snark was spot on as well.
So,i now have a tuner that cost more than twice the price of a Snark,but has no advantage in it's tuning ability

Put the Polytune into 'Strobe' mode..... then compare....

Accurate to +/- 0.02 cents in that mode.

The regular Snark's only indicate 2.5 cents between indicators.

[Jill McAuley]

I just ordered a Polytune so looking forward to comparing it to my old Red Snark. I have to say, similar to another poster here, I've had issues with it's accuracy on the A & E strings as well on both my mandolin and tenor banjo. The mandolin was recently set up by my luthier as well FYI.

[colorado_al]

+1 for D'Addario micro
I have one on each of my instruments. Just leave them on. Easy, small, accurate.

[MikeEdgerton]

I tuned up last year. I'll see if I need to tune again next year.

[gtani7]

I tuned up last year. I'll see if I need to tune again next year.

my now former teacher said when he went to IBMA he was changing strings at least every day. But he was also playing 10+ hours/day.

And, sort of on-topic: I got the korg contact mike, http://www.korg.com/us/products/tuners/cm_200/, doesn't work that great on headstock. It might work well if i ran it thru a mixer preamp, but who wants to bother.

[chris.burcher]

I have tried it on several guitars and lots of mandolins - same effect. Now, I'll admit i'm not that smart but think it has been on vibe and not mic. I, also dumbly, have never tuned the tuner itself. Thanks for ideas to try! It's not horrible but my buddy's black snark is just incredible. Maybe it's the 'set up'. Will try tonight as i continue to search for the sweet spot between neck relief, action, and playability on my new yellowstone.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've tested every tuner i've ever had (2 Intelli 500's & 2 Red Snarks) using my banjo's G tuning fork,& they've all 'locked on' to a correct G note. I did the same thing yesterday with the new Polytune,with the same result. So,if they do the same thing when clamped to an instrument,i can only assume that the strings are correctly tuned - what more do we need ?. As long as they hit the 'centre spot',for me,it doesn't matter what the % errors on either side are,i'm not interested in them - i want ''in tune''. Tuning forks don't display % 'errors',& in tuning something as elaborate as a grand piano, it's down to the hearing of a piano tuner. That's why i believe that our hearing can do ''something else'' when it comes down to absolute refinement in tuning. As i said in my previous post,if i tune both strings in a pair to the tuner,even if they register the absolute same note,they never sound absolutely 'correct' to my ear when played together ie. they never sound like 'one' string. I used the new Polytune to tune my Ellis yesterday. I tuned one string to the tuner & then the second string to the first & it sounded as perfect as i could ever wish. I do take into consideration the added string tension on the neck when tuning the second string,as it might affect the tension on the already tuned first string as the neck moves under the extra string tension. I always re-check the first string in the pair i'm tuning & then re-check all the strings when up to pitch for the same reason.
This is all hair splitting IMHO - as long as our instruments are 'in tune',it doesn't matter which tuner you use - does it ?,
Ivan

[Beanzy]

Yep. I'm another who just wants one good reference note then the rest are all tuned relative to that.
Maybe it's just because I learnt with a tuning fork so have always tuned that way even when I moved over to using electronic tuners.
A few guidelines that helped me starting out
For tuning to someone else's reference note or doing the pairs; listen for the beats & tune till they synchronise.
For your fifths; can you hear the bagpipes yet?
And a wee rule for everyone at a jam or in a group/ orchestra; tune up then shut up & let the others tune up.

Occasionally I'll just use the tuner and hope for the best due to things like retuning in the middle of a piece if it goes out suddenly & I can't tell which string went which way, but that's been very rare. Mostly you can just face a wall and huddle to hear the instrument close up. Remember the tuner will be thrown off in a noisy environment too as your instrument will be vibrating sympathetically with the ambient noise.

The reason I like tuning this way is because it means I'm not delegating my intonation to a machine, which means I'm keeping my ears awake and trained up. As with any other skill you need to keep it trained. It really helps when using narrow fifths tuning as you just know when it's sounding right The big advantage there is that you get quick at catching when a string is shifting out of tune and retuning is really fast because you don't need to reach for the tuner.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Beanzy - "...listen for the beats & tune till they synchronise.". Absolutely !. That's how i tune one string to another - as do most folks. I still use a tuning fork for tuning my banjo. I need binoculars to see a tuner if i clamp it to the headstock. Plus,tuning a banjo's even more frustrating because the neck / pot junction flexes so easily,
Ivan

[chris.burcher]

So I figured out my dilemma with the red snark. I had it turned on mic and not vibe BECAUSE the vibe feature hardly works. When it is on vibe the tuner does not respond unless I 'thunk' it repeatedly. I remember this happening, turning it on to mic, and then not using it anymore until recently. I do consider the tuning capacity 'better' using the vibe feature, and pretty good really, but having to thunk it to get it to work is annoying. I was able to make significant progress on my setup using it last night so that's worth something.

[Polecat]

Given that part of the banjo's tone is created by frequency modulation (flexing of the head-skin), it's a moot point if a banjo can ever be strictly "in tune" (like a violin played with vibrato), however, bands with banjos seem to be able to agree upon an intonation they find satisfactory.
If you're happy with your snark, Ivan, that's all that matters - I wasn't, because it is not "tight" enough to rely on in situations that defeat my ears.
All in all, I do not feel that the technological revolution has been purely a benefit for acoustic music. When I started performing in british folk clubs in the early 1980s, there were "singers nights", not "open mics", and eating a packet of potato crisps was considered rude, because too noisy, and people listened, however lousy you were (and I was). Mind you, the room was often thick with cigarette smoke, and that was considered acceptable. People tuned by ear, to a greater or lesser degree of success, and I think the music was the richer for it (if you listen to old blues records, or Topic Records field recordings, there are some very interesting intonations - would Robert Johnson's singing send shivers up our spines if you stripped him of his "microtonality"? I doubt it).
And Beanzy's point that

The reason I like tuning this way is because it means I'm not delegating my intonation to a machine, which means I'm keeping my ears awake and trained up. As with any other skill you need to keep it trained. It really helps when using narrow fifths tuning as you just know when it's sounding right The big advantage there is that you get quick at catching when a string is shifting out of tune and retuning is really fast because you don't need to reach for the tuner.

is very pertinant, I could't have put it better.

[darrylicshon]

I liked my red snark but my wife broke her no name tuner so i gave it to her and i had been using my fender FT-1620 California Series for another mandolin so i just went back to it. I like the fender FT-1620 California Series it comes on when you clip it on and tunes good for me. I haven't compared it to the snark i will have to do that

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Polecat - It seems that your past playing experiences have been very much like my own. I started playing at my local 'singers club' in Manchester, as soon as i got the courage up around 1965(ish). That's how i met the future members of the band i got together in late 1965. Back then,folk clubs could be either a pub which had folk music,or,a folk club that 'sold beer'. I found a big difference in that the folk club audiences kept quiet,they were there specifically for the music. Pubs were the exact opposite.
Very early on in my banjo 'career',i went to see ''The Humble Bums'' with Billy Connolly playing banjo,at a pub called The White Swan in Manchester. The audience was typically noisy & BC put them down in no uncertain terms.
I use i/net radio stations for music to pick along to & if i detect that my mandolin's out of tune, i use a tuner to re-tune. I don't turn the volume on my speakers down,i simply rely on the centre, 'in tune' section of my tuner doing it's bit,
Ivan

[derbex]

People tuned by ear, to a greater or lesser degree of success

Still seem to round our way

I use a cheapo tuner http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007WREIQQ seems to work as well as anything else that people use, I use the same method to tune up as Ivan -once in a while I'll check across the strings and they are in tune at 7th fret as well (depending on the mandolin )

[Stevo75]

When you guys are getting just one reference note and tuning all the strings to that, what are you doing?

I usually tune my guitar with just one reference note. I hit the harmonic at the fifth fret and let that ring out while I tune the string above it. Then I just listen for the beats to go away. On the mandolin, I'll tune one string in a course to the tuner and then tune the other string by ear. But I do this for all four string courses. I don't have a good way to tune one string course to another. I know I can hit the note at the seventh fret and tune the string above it, but that doesn't seem to work out as well as the guitar. It's harder to keep that note fretted with one hand while I tune with the other and the notes don't ring out as long on a mandolin as a guitar.

[pops1]

Lower string open, say G, next string, D fret on the 5th fret. I think it's easier to hear tho I do both. You can also use the 12th fret harmonic for the open string. It's a little reverse of what you are hearing so you can use both to check.

[FLATROCK HILL]

For tuning to someone else's reference note or doing the pairs; listen for the beats & tune till they synchronise.

Exactly!