Jams; finding the 'right' fit.

[Danidog]

In my geographic area, there are several jams that meet on a regular basis for people interested in bluegrass. I've always thought (maybe erroneously), that if you obeyed the common sense rules of etiquette for new attendees, everything should be okay. I'm beginning to rethink that now, however.
I know several of the people who attend the bluegrass jams through professional/work situations. Seems to be a common theme with the jam regulars or leaders to bash those deemed 'unworthy'. I keep hearing, "I don't know why so-and-so bothered to come out, he/she can't (enter whatever criticism you like here).
Now, I can hold my own with a guitar in most settings and have attended many jams in areas different than the present. But, being new to mandolin, I feel more inclined to lay back, play low and listen and learn. After listening to the water cooler complaints over the past few months, I really don't know if I want to deal with these knuckleheads or not (and no, they are not pro or semi-pro level players).
So, how do you go about finding that 'right fit' for your skill level and comfort zone? I've found a nice group of folks for old time jams, but bluegrass seems to be a 'hard nut' to crack into around here. Is this attitude widespread, or just a local regional thing?

thanks,

[billhay4]

I think it's more widespread than we'd like to admit. I solved it by losing interest in bluegrass and developing interest in other forms of music. Too much emphasis on speed and conformity in bluegrass to suit my style. Still, finding people you fit in with is precious and very rewarding. I found one guy and we added another, etc. until we had a good group. Lasted 6 years. I've got another group now, but we're in the early going and are learning to adjust to one another.
Playing with other people is what music is all about in my view, so it's worth the effort.
Bill

[Mark Wilson]

One way to find a group you fit in with is thru networking. For every public 'open' jam, I figure there's scores of un-advertised small group jams. You have to meet a few pickers to find out about these smaller jam groups.

After finding 'fitting in' issues at my level, I decided one way to find a group that I fit in with was to start my own. The thing that worked for me was attending the big jams, getting to know the organizer, and seeing if they minded you using the contacts list from their jam to ask if anyone wanted to pick a little on the side.

With permission from the organizer - I sent out a email looking for pickers who would like to get together weekly to learn fiddle tunes. I mentioned I was heading into my 3rd year, and the speed I was capable of playing at the time. I found a small group already picking on the side that could use a mandolin picker.

And I've been picking with a like-minded group since.

[bigskygirl]

They're are always going to be people talking about others for whatever reasons, it's been my experience mostly that it's not coming from a mean place it's just human nature. I have a feeling it's more widespread, it just depends on the jam's level of tolerance. I have a couple local jams where anything goes, we are all just happy to get together and play. I've also been to jams where if an OT tune is called the BG police are right there to stamp it out...

Now, if it was me the question would be, "what's in it for me"...if it's a jam where I'm going to learn a lot and gain good experience then I would most likely go and just ignore the small talk, and use the group for learning and having fun. I'm assuming it's not good friends you regularly hang out with outside of work/jams so you only have to be around them for a few hours a week/month.

Since you have access to multiple jams try them all out and see what fits. Or, start your own like Mark and Bill mentioned.

[Ky Slim]

I've found a nice group of folks for old time jams, but bluegrass seems to be a 'hard nut' to crack into around here.

I think it's tough everywhere and unfortunately the attitudes you mention are too common. I agree with bigskygirl that you might as well try out all the jams that are around you.

I kind of get a kick out of listening to the trash talk at jams (all jams not just BG) but I never participate in it. I mean you'll have two guys that sit right next to each other at a jam like peas in a pod every week for years but when you separate them they dog each others playing and singing. I just smile and say "they sound good to me" no matter what. For me it's all about learning and having fun.

[Tobin]

One way to find a group you fit in with is thru networking. For every public 'open' jam, I figure there's scores of un-advertised small group jams. You have to meet a few pickers to find out about these smaller jam groups.

After finding 'fitting in' issues at my level, I decided one way to find a group that I fit in with was to start my own.

I agree on the networking thing. There are a lot of closed, private jams or house picking-parties out there that you can only find out about by networking with other pickers in the area. And most importantly, becoming friends with them and showing that you're worthy of being invited. "Worthy" meaning not only being able to play well and follow a tune, but knowing how to be the kind of person/player that people want to jam with. It's much more rewarding, in a certain way, to be invited to a closed jam than to play at open jams. At least when you get the special invitation, you know it's because they really want you there, and there's no wondering whether you're the guy they talk about after you leave, LOL.

Starting a new jam can be a bit of a gamble, but it's the way to go if you really want to set the tone and limit the type of music being played. I'm considering doing that so I can get a true Old-Time jam going. It's just a matter of finding local pickers who actually play OT music around here.

People always seem to get offended at the "bluegrass police" at jams, or any sort of jam rules that try to control the type of music. But I will say that after sitting through bluegrass jams and listening to people play Bob Dylan songs on a ukulele, or yodeling cowboy ballads, or Alice in Chains on an acoustic guitar, I have come to appreciate a jam where the organizer wants to stick pretty tightly to a particular genre. If I were running a jam, I'd do the same.

[farmerjones]

If they ain't talkin about you, don't worry about it.
I would not let it stop me from trying a jam I'd never been before.
It takes a modicum of assertiveness, to join in the fray of a hot Bluegrass jam.
If you've held up your end of the deal, and they still treat you with shoulders, (like it's band practice)
move on. Their loss.
I will agree a small group is tons more fun. But beware. Let's say you show up to a jam with three or four buddies.
Then it's you that has to watch that it doesn't turn into band practice.

[Beanzy]

Is it any wonder those bad mouthers are not getting invited to those private jams?

[dwc]

Here is the thing I've noticed about jams in general, but it more prevalent in bluegrass jams. A fair number of the jams I have seen amount to musical cosplay; a bunch of amateur adults on a stage pretending to be professionals and casting a very suspicious eye towards anything that breaks the verisimilitude of their fantasy; this includes, but is not limited to, bass guitars (acoustic or electric), ukuleles, and even A style mandolins. This extends to musicians that they don't think are "cutting it." I have seldom encountered these sort of prejudices when playing with professionals.

[FLATROCK HILL]

In an ideal world, a jam session would be a friendly group of great pickers. A welcoming old buzzard like Briscoe would always be there to say "jump in and hang on!".

Sometimes in the real world, the pickers aren't quite as hospitable. And although they might think they're the Darlings (Dillards), a lot of 'em are a far cry from it.

The good, fun, friendly jams are out there, it just takes a while to find them. Keep looking. Don't give up.

[jaycat]

I agree, from my limited experience, that this kind of snootiness does seem to be more common in strictly BG jams, although I don't really know why that should be the case, but as Van Morrison said, "it just is."

I found the perfect jam by going to lots of less-than-perfect jams, each of which had at least one or two kindred spirits, and connecting with those folks until we had a really good mix of folks. I might add that we play pretty much all kinds of music, including some BG but then again we have been known to break into White Rabbit on occasion . . . we also have had spoons, autoharp, melodica, etc. players -- all are welcome.

[music man]

Is it any wonder those bad mouthers are not getting invited to those private jams?

Living in North Central Ohio I only have about three places to pick from that have regular open jams.I enjoy going to all of them cause most of the time there are different people at each one.I go just to enjoy playing and hearing other pickers.so far I haven't met too many snooty folks,but I'm sure there are some.

[Mandoplumb]

Ive been to jams like y'all are describing, where a couple think they are the cat's meow and everyone else is below them. I don't go back, let th big boys play but the couple jams I attend every chance I get are not at all like that, they are basically a BG jam but any one is welcome and any acoustic music is welcome. We do frown on amplified instruments but really if you have 8or 10 pickers and a couple are amped it becomes hard to hear the others.

[nickster60]

I have never heard more gossip and Ill talk until I started playing bluegrass. It seems like the same old buzzards rule the roost. Most of these guys should look in the mirror or maybe record thier own playing before casting stones.

[SincereCorgi]

I keep hearing, "I don't know why so-and-so bothered to come out, he/she can't (enter whatever criticism you like here).

If the people are jerks, skip it, it's not worth it to hang out with jerks. But if those criticisms are that a person can't 'play in time' or 'play a tune all the way through' or 'remember more than one verse of a song', then I can kinda sympathize. It can be frustrating for more advanced players to play with beginners, especially if the beginners haven't mastered some basic musicianship skills. I certainly wouldn't gripe about it publicly, though, as that just seems like tacky behavior.

When I started playing bluegrass, I went to a lot of public jams that, frankly, I didn't like very much, but it was a good way to practice skills and start to meet some nice people. After a while, when you've paid your dues, you start getting invited to private jams and those are much more fun.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I don't know what regular jam sessions are like in the US,but i've attended a few over here, & mostly the folks who attend, slipped into a rut years back & have never attempted to get out of it. That's fine if you simply want to sit & strum along to slow, pedantic tunes all the time,but if you have any aspirations to improve,it's a killer. Don't get me wrong - i've got nothing against that sort of situation,but it's not for me. When i started playing banjo 53 years back,i wanted to learn to play as good as the guys i was listening to on record,& over the years,i managed it. On guitar,i knew i'd never be really any good,not because of lack of effort,but due to a lack of knowing 'which style to play' - i love everything on guitar but ended up playing almost nothing. When i came to mandolin,my goal was to be as good as i could be,& very often that meant trying out things which were outside my current playing level. Again,over time,i've improved a lot,but it's taken literally 1,000s of hours. After putting in so much time & effort,jamming along with ''lesser players'' - & i don't mean that unkindly - isn't for me. As it is,i've only found 'what i need' at Bluegrass festivals where there are players who are better than myself. I stand back,watch & try to learn,which, in a situation where there are some really good players, is pretty easy to do.
If at a jam session,you can find a player or players from whom you can learn,then it's worth while. But,if you have any real aspirations to be a 'really good' player,then sometimes,trying things out in a context where most of the 'jammers' are 'plodders',you can come across as a show off.
It's pretty hard to find jam sessions where all the players are 'good',so it's mainly a case of try 'em out - if they're ok fine,if not,duck out. Stick a CD on your stereo & pick along with 'whoever'. I had a good session with Blue Highway / The Lonesome River Band & Del McCoury yesterday & not one complaint !!!,
Ivan

[Mandoplumb]

When I first started on mandolin and music as a kid, I was told by a older musician something I've found to be true in music as well as just about anything you get involved in. He said " I don't care how good you get or how bad or inexperienced you think the one you are listening to is, if you listen to him ( or her) long enough, you'll learn something" if I start to get a little impatient with a less musically adapt person at a jam I just think of what I was told and listen, ready to learn. ( assuming they are in tune, can't listen to out of tune----it hurts.

[Bertram Henze]

It's not BG, it's human. The playing is just a front, the important action is behind the scenes. In ITM sessions, there are those people who play the Irish game of wisecrack/banter/jostling words, and their objective is unfathomability, so you never know what they really mean.
Example: someone opposite you in the circle says "it's good you're there - (pause) - and not here" (laughter).
You have to learn to either participate and be an even more enigmatic punster or to just smile and ignore them. And ignoring them may get as far as going elsewhere, if the general feeling resembles too much of a cold war* - been there, done that myself; after all, you're still supposed to look forward to attending.

(*) that's where your intellect won't help you decide - you have to have an actual soul for that.

[Timbofood]

I think the rules of common decency apply and those disparaging souls are simply narrow and frankly the pointy end of a hay fork! You know, P----s.
This music is getting narrow minded enough in some circles that it's not as much fun as it used to be. These, "seasoned pickers" need to think back to when they were not old salts and suck it up. I do my best to help struggling folks at a jam when I can but, sometimes it's an uphill battle.
What we need more of is the return to kindness and nobility. Be kind, help your fellow man!

"Look at him, he didn't like me back then, now he really hates me!" Brian Maclean (James Cagney) "Captains of the Clouds"

[jaycat]

. . . Be kind, help your fellow man!

Hear hear! Words to live by, Tim (I wish I were better at it.)

[stevedenver]

While I have never felt unwelcome at many jams, I do find, for me as a musician, finding the right fit is not easy.

I agree be nice and be happy, and bring energy and something to contribute, like one or two songs you can sing, well, or otherwise.

I find, it's the dynamics with others. It can be delicate. It is rarely a constant or predictable thing too.


You can like the folks, but perhaps not their musical interests, style, tempo, etc.
You can love the sympatico with music, timing, musical communication, but , not fit with the folks.

I too have ambivalence at times, and explore group playing in and out of bluegrass.
I do have to say, that BG, IS a great vehicle for almost instant compatibility, changes, lyrics, even harmonies, all more or less familiar.

Short of jazz players, also knowing a certain repertoire, there's not much else so close to instant 'band'. The good/bad thing about BG is one can know what to do in many tunes one doesn't know or has never heard. OTOH, twenty tunes in G, with or without a C , Em or Am, gets old at times. OTOH, one can learn something new and wonderful almost every meeting.

[Denny Gies]

Most of you are correct, there are dorks every where. However, my experience is that most bluegrass pickers I've come across are welcoming and pretty nice.

[Relio]

I echo the statements about finding private, home picking groups. I started by going to large open jams, now I have three different groups of players that we get together at each others homes to pick. All of the open large jams I've been to were very welcoming and encouraging to beginner players. However, I'm not exactly in the hotbed of American bluegrass, and I can see how attitudes may change in an area of the country were there are more "hot" pickers.

[Randi Gormley]

I've never attempted a BG jam but the same thing certainly holds true for ITM; I've sat in some very welcoming sessions and some that I needed to get my coat out because of the ice. For the less-welcoming one, I'm certainly capable of sitting in and acknowledged when I attend, but I don't get any pleasure out of it so I just don't go unless there's a guest I particularly want to play with or support. There are other sessions around that are more accepting of newcomers (even beginners who use music stands and play from books). I'm not sure how many other groups are in the OP's neck of the woods, but the ITM circle here in the wilds of Connecticut is fairly limited so you see a lot of the same faces here and there and you quickly get to know who plays at the level you like to play with and make whatever side plans you want. buddy of ours moved to Cape Cod -- they have an entire "underground" network of private sessions by invitation only, but there are at least two public sessions for people who just drop in. You make connections at one to get invited to the other.

[AlanN]

Yeah, the wide-open jams can be tough. One regular one I hit irks me because the same folks play the same songs, over and over, week after week. So boring. I try to bring in new, but it's a chore. My thing with the bluegrass music is, if you know how to play and know the canon of tunes, learning a new one should be a no-brainer, even if you've never heard it/picked it. Take Lochwood or Come Hither to Go Yonder, from Monroe's Master of Bluegrass. I can play the tunes' melodies very clearly, nothing fancy. Sure, the first time through, maybe need to call out the chords/stops, but once done, it's done (or should be). With this jam crowd, nope.

And I have no patience with rude, exclusionary folks, regardless of talent.