Finger plane designs - prototypes etc.

[alfie]

Hello all, I'm working up some designs for finger planes as part of my degree - I'd love to get some feedback on what I've got so far. A few things I'm trying to work in:

- Some kind of palm handle that isn't clumsy or irritating. It seems fixed palm rests a la d'Angelico aren't that popular. I'm not a fan because i find they make it easy to lever the blade off the surface of the wood accidentally, while when it's in my finger tips I can let it pivot and track the surface on its own. Does this ring true to the more experienced folk on here? I read some of James Condino's posts and he seems to be a fan of the fixed handle. Does anyone feel like using finger planes has done them any damage? From the carving I've done they feel like a shortcut to arthritis.

- Proper blade adjustment. The ability to quickly and constantly adjust the depth of cut seems like a no-brainer, although I appreciate one can get pretty quick with a wedge and the butt of a chisel.

- User-tweakable soles. Brass is definitely the right material for most of the body for a lot of reasons, but a wooden sole seems like a much kinder option, and would let you tweak the shape to suit your needs. It would involve a little more set-up when you buy it though. Worthwhile?

With this in mind, here is a quick prototype I knocked up yesterday:

It's a fairly small one, I wanted to be sure the adjustment was practical at the smaller end of the spectrum. Hopefully these will go up to 20-25mm, but this is 12.



I've not seen this kind of adjustment in a finger plane, is this a new idea? Trying to cut down on moving parts, there's an impression of threads on the back of the iron which mate with a thumb screw sitting in a pocket behind it. It seems to work pretty well, although it's only m6 - I think it would have to be steel to go the distance.



The rather ungainly ball on the cap pops into the socket in this palm handle. The idea is that you can use your palm to put pressure on the plane, but steer it in three dimensions with your fingertips. Power-steering! It seems effective, although it's sitting too high on this prototype I think.





This one has a boxwood sole which slide into a stopped dovetail, and is retained by the iron. The idea is that it would come flat and with a couple of spares, and you shape to taste. Excuse the scratches.



Any thoughts? Is it over-complicated? How do you feel about the ergonomics? Are there any other features you want to see in it? This is an embryonic sort of prototype, so please shoot it down - the design's going to change a lot.

[alfie]

I would love to get this and subsequent prototypes in the hands of working luthiers, if anyone in the England wants to give these a go I'd happily send them round for a few days. I'll need 'em back though!

[billhay4]

Here are my reactions, Alfie.
Number one will be hard on the fingers. Elegant little design, though.
Have not seen an adjustment like that, built into the blade. Over time the pressure of planing might strip the threads a bit, but this would take quite a while.
Number two: I'd lose the boxwood sole. It will wear and brass would do as good. Unless, however, you want to make them in different profiles. It would simplify that.
However, the ball cap is a terrific idea. I have some of these from Lee Valley and find the palm cap to be a great help.
Hope this helps.
Bill

[sunburst]

Personally, I don't like the wooden sole idea. These things make a lot of trips over the wood to do their work, and they wear. The Ibex planes I have are bronze (not brass), the the one I use the most has visible wear on the sole. Shaping the sole is not a difficult job anyway, so bronze is fine.
I don't much care about fancy adjustments. It is quick and easy to tap iron this way or that to get it adjusted, and in a small finger plane, the added complication of adjusting mechanisms seems to me like it is adding mass and size unnecessarily.
I don't like palm handles on small planes but I do on a larger (palm) carving plane. I thing the removable swivel handle is a good idea. The reason I don't like palm handles is the amount they limit maneuverability, and the swivel aspect and the removable aspect seem like they might remedy that situation.
The big thing for me would be ergonomics. I'd love to have finger planes that actually fit my fingers, so my opinion is: Keep it simple and make it ergonomic.

[kjbllc]

the angle looks a little high for the palm , lower the angle so you would get more push laterally than down. at least by the picture.

[Phil-D]

I would like a finger plane that is actually comfortable to use and grip. I'd like to see a place for my fore finger to rest at the front of the plane, a place for my palm to rest, and recesses on the sides for my thumb and fingers to aid in gripping. Although not necessary, perhaps the the recesses could be knurled.
The depth adjustment on your plane looks to be overkill. A simple wedge or thumb screw for blade adjustment would probably be sufficient. I love the look of a wooden plane, but I also like a bit of heft/weight in my tools, so I'd opt for brass or bronze to get that feel.

[Oliver A.]

'nice work there alfie. There's a lot of personal preference in plane design. Perhaps you can offer some choices. Personally, I like the simple traditional style fingerplanes ala George Walters.



If I could change some things in these planes though, I would like the soles to be a little thicker for two reasons. First, the front of the blade uses the mouth as a contact point and on some of these planes the relatively thin sole means that the blade is resting on the bevel which makes it difficult sometimes to get the wedge to hold the blade in place because the angled face of the bevel doesn't register well on the thin sole. (if you can follow what I'm trying to say)
The other reason that I would like a little heavier sole is so that, as you have mentioned, I could re-shape the sole to my preference.

One thing that I do like about my planes is that the sidewalls of the body are thin. This allows me to get further down the side of a tonebar when I am shaping them.

I've never used a fingerplane with a palm knob but I imagine that the overall length and angle must be just right or pressure won't be applied right at the edge of the blade. If this arrangement could be made right it may help take the pressure off of my fingers and reduce blisters. Nowadays, I wrap special latex coated tape around my fingers when carving with these planes.

If I were going to make some of these planes, I think I'd start by carving some wooden facsimiles that felt good in my grip and then figuring out the blade holding mechanism. Keep it simple. Anyone can come up with a complicated solution. Genius always reduces things to their most simplest.

[Michael Lewis]

It takes some time with a palm knob to build the skill to control the cut, so knobs tend to be more useful for some aspects of finger planing but as mentioned they can seem awkward unless one develops the feel for making them work. The reason is the length of the 'lever' from the cutting edge. When you hold the plane with just the fingers the distance to the cutting edge is pretty close and easier to 'control'. The knob or handle is better for longer straighter strokes and less useful for more complicated contours. Angles of force and contact have a lot to do with the way the plane will feel and react.

I think you have a great idea to develop some awesome fingerplanes, so I hope you really make it happen.

"Everybody" has different bone structure, so one size won't fit all. Some room for adjustment here and there would be a good idea.

[HoGo]

I'd keep is simple as well. The wood sole is not good idea. I made a bunch of fingerplanes myself and even those with ebony soles did wear rather quickly. They are used over ridges of gouge carved surface and this will damage any wood. I had good luck with bone sole on one that I use the most. Thin side walls is very good idea as well. The handle can help on larger sizes but on smaller ones the handle tends to push the back of teh plane down to wood and effectively lifting blade (which is typically in the very front) away from cut. When I'm using fingerplanes I hold them between index and thumb and my bent third finger (middle) pushes against back of the plane and provides movement. I often get blisters on that finger because the point of contact is rather small on rounded back of plane, perhaps adding a padded bed in that place would make it more comfortable.

[kjbllc]

i glued some leather on mine, that seemed to help.

[CarlM]

I suspect your screw adjustment mechanism will wear out fairly quickly. It will probably be difficult to get good engagement given the thickness of the blade that you have to work with. Choice of materials could make a big difference as well as thread profile. An acme or square thread might hold up better. Cutting the engagement notches clear through the blade so you can get down into the body of the thread might help also. It will certainly work in the short term but longer trials will tell the truth of it.

[Wes Brandt]

I think one thing to watch out for is to keep the line of force that pushes the plane forward either at the blade or behind/below it… right now you have the handle pushing it in front of the blade… I have experienced chatter in planes that push in front of the blade

I do like the adjustment idea though… very positive and easy to excecute I would think.

[alfie]

Thanks for all the great responses, I can't tell you how helpful that is. Loads of great ideas here, I'll get some photos of ergonomic mock ups and the next prototype up ASAP. What a fantastic site!

[Oliver A.]

I thought you might be interested in this simple design to add to your ideas.





I like the thicker than usual blade iron on this one as well. It makes for a more positive feel and reduces chatter.

The plane is made by Lee Valley Tools but I believe that it is more or less a copy of an older design.

[alfie]

Interesting that the blade is levered up against a cap rather than pushed onto a frog, I'm surprised it doesn't want to chatter. Are the Veritas palm planes arranged this way, anyone who has one?

Here's another couple of prototypes, I've been having a bit more fun with the ergonomics. With this one I was trying to make it work without the palm handle or anything, just to see how it would work out. Rather than a screw adjuster I arranged it like a rabbet plane, which means as well as a bit of extra width you can adjust the cut with your thumb next to the blade. Annoyingly, this one just doesn't really work - if you're working across the grain the shavings jam in the 'arms' of the mouth. The arms are sharpened but it didn't seem to help. Is there and accepted way around this or do rabbet planes just not work at this scale?









This one will have an adjuster/handle, but the adjuster rolled into a corner of my workshop and is still hiding! I'll find the damn thing tomorrow... It works very well, I think.









Any thoughts? Same deal as before, please be as rude as possible!

[Oliver A.]

It looks like your really headin' in the right direction. Kudos to you! I like the idea of the rabbet style plane. That would really help when shaping tone-bars. I hope that you can get it to work. Nothing's more annoying than having to pull shavings out of a plane every stroke or two. Perhaps if you "sharpen" the sides from the inside it might work better.
The other plane is nice too. I really like the shaped thumb and finger indents. The only thing that I would say is, I would like the blade and throat to be a little wider (thinner sidewalls at that point) so that, you guessed it, I could get down along side of a tone bar.
Being able to adjust the blade without any tools is great and I also like the overall smoothness of the design. Keep up the excellent work! If you get these perfected put me on the list for one. (or maybe three, 1/2", 3/4" and 1 1/4" for guitars)

[alfie]

A quick update: found the adjuster!

[sunburst]

I doubt if there is any way around some clearance problems for the shavings in the rabbet plane design. Shavings need a clear path out through the top of the plane, so clearing shavings manually might end up being part of using them since the opening for the shavings can't be as wide as the iron. While I agree that being able to shave farther down on the sides of braces would be great, shaving right to the corner between brace and top (or back) is not necessary for me, and further, I think I would prefer not to have the iron the full width of the sole to help avoid digging the edge of the iron into the top (or back) when shaving braces. Reducing the width of the iron to a little less than the width of the sole might help with both things; chip clearance and damage to the top or back next to braces.

[john lewis]

Thanks for all the great responses, I can't tell you how helpful that is. Loads of great ideas here, I'll get some photos of ergonomic mock ups and the next prototype up ASAP. What a fantastic site!

I have a ton of finger planes but the best of them were made by Stephen Boone. They are small wooden finger planes. I don't believe he makes planes anymore but you can see how he did it on his YouTube videos. They fit well in the hand and if you look at his design, they are wider at he top than at the bottom - kind of a faux rabbet design.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Stephenmboone/videos

There are 3 videos about his mini-planes. Good luck with your designs.

[alfie]

The taper does seem to work well, although it would give the irons a very finite life? I was talking to a very experienced violin maker a few days ago, and I was astonished by how quickly he got through irons. He would take them to the grinder twice a day!

I think John is right about the practicality of the rabbet design, it seems to create as many problems as it solves. I suppose it's just going to come down to keeping the cheeks as thin as is sensible.

This one is a bit more violin-y, but it seems people spend more time with the really tiny planes than i expected. I've made this one just about as small as I can while keeping the ergonomics consistent with the big brothers. The iron is 5mm wide.

Please excuse the roughness, I'm in 'bashing out prototypes' mode!







I didn't want a large thumb screw protruding from the body, and I'm not a fan of tiny brass threads, so I made a compound-lever cap for this one which works really surprisingly well at this scale. However, there is no adjustment for wear so I fear it is doomed in the long term, unless I can work something out that doesn't add yet more complexity.

If anyone has a couple of minutes to spare, could you fill in this survey? There's only 9 questions, I'm just trying to get some hard data to start finalising this with. Come to cornwall and I'll buy you a pint!

https://surveyplanet.com/570233fcc05c3c071b3c544a

[kjbllc]

very interesting design , I may have missed it but what type of steel are you using for the blade? also you end up sharpening a lot with spruce especially because it is soft and you want really clean cuts .

[alfie]

The blade is 01, I'm used to using it and I like it a lot. I might experiment with some others, but I've yet to feel the need. Tempered right it feels damn close to old-school 'cast steel' in use, which is no bad thing.

[Oliver A.]

The taper does seem to work well, although it would give the irons a very finite life? I was talking to a very experienced violin maker a few days ago, and I was astonished by how quickly he got through irons. He would take them to the grinder twice a day!

I keep my planes very sharp and I have never taken them to the grinder. I hone them on a felt wheel with the green honing compound from Lee Valley tools. It has kept them going for decades and only very occasionally do I take them to my oil stones. The steel in my GEWA planes is excellent.

That being said, I'm not sure if I would like blades that taper in width. I have not watched the above video but I am guessing that the blades could be ground down, while maintaining the taper on the sides as they become shorter. On the other hand, I suppose if the taper made the planes significantly more ergonomic, I could put up with the extra maintenance. In my case it would be seldom that the sides of the blade would have to be ground down.

(survey completed)

[HoGo]

I keep my planes very sharp and I have never taken them to the grinder. I hone them on a felt wheel with the green honing compound from Lee Valley tools. It has kept them going for decades and only very occasionally do I take them to my oil stones. The steel in my GEWA planes is excellent.

Same here. I mostly just hone the blades sharpening is done in my case on fine sandpaper on glass. If I really want to resharpen I start at 400 grit asnd that hardly removes any material. I would have to chip edge badly to start thinking about grinding.

[Marty Jacobson]

Same here. I mostly just hone the blades sharpening is done in my case on fine sandpaper on glass. If I really want to resharpen I start at 400 grit asnd that hardly removes any material. I would have to chip edge badly to start thinking about grinding.

Same here. Why would you grind a plane iron anyway? It's not hollow ground...