value difference between lacquer finish and varnish finish ?

[Tom Sanderson]

I'm looking for opinions about how much more (if any) a used high end mandolin with varnish (french polished) finish should sell for than a similar one with lacquer finish. How much more would you pay?

[dwc]

All of my violins are finished with French polish, so when I bought my first very expensive mandolin, it was varnished. A year of heavy play in bars and the like and the finish was just destroyed. IMO mandolins and guitars are subjected to considerably more stress than a violin, from pick wear to pinky rub to the way we hold them, fretted instruments are subjected to considerably more wear and tear.

If you are a hobbiest or collector, this may not apply, but my instruments, especially my mandolin see 3-4 hours of play a day on average, so I go for a catalyzed varnish finish.

All that being said, I think I probably payed a $1k or so premium for my varnished Gibson, which seems fair.

[multidon]

For Weber the up charge on an A style is 1500 and for an F style 2500. So based on that probably 1000 extra used A style and 1500 or so for F style.

[DataNick]

I think Gibson's up charge is $5K...

[barry]

I think Gibson's up charge is $5K...

On older Gibsons, the difference could be 50,000-100,000.

[dschonbrun]

On a Collings, the difference new between and MV5 and MF5-V is about $2,500. Used value is likely less... although when the item becomes rare, the qualities of a varnish finish (tone and volume) may begin to increase the relative value more steeply.

[Ivan Kelsall]

How does Varnish affect the overall tone compared to a Cellulose lacquer ?. Could you tell the difference,one from the other in a blind testing ?. A good friend of mine who'd been playing mandolin for many years, loved the sound of my 'varnished' Lebeda. He was convinced that the varnish was a superior finish. How surprised he was when he found out that it has a lacquered finish !.
Personally,i can't help feeling that originally,the varnish finish was a throw over from violin finish. I do however,think that a nice varnish finish,presents a nicer looking mandolin (IMHO). As for any tonal differences ....?,
Ivan

[HoGo]

Personally,i can't help feeling that originally,the varnish finish was a throw over from violin finish. I do however,think that a nice varnish finish,presents a nicer looking mandolin (IMHO). As for any tonal differences ....?, Ivan

I think thin finish is better than thick no matter what stuff it is. Basically it just adds mass without adding stiffness which is not good for tone. I'd go for thin lacquer over thick varnish any day.
Sprayed lacquers are commonly sprayed generously to cover the surface with confidence and then sanded back flat and buffed, this typically results in thick layer. Of course you can spray on varnish this way and it will be no better (other than the patina).
Hand applied varnishes (oil or spirit or French polish) are applied in thin layers just enough to get nice smooth finish with no unncessary build-up. That is more time consuming and you still risk burn-through on the thin layer during final buffing.

[G7MOF]

Why though! Is it that much more expensive to finish with varnish than lacquer?

[HoGo]

Why though! Is it that much more expensive to finish with varnish than lacquer?

I only use varnish as I have no spray booth but IMO there is not that much difference in cost. Perhaps the fast curing poly finishes that can be sanded and buffed within tens of minutes from application are different and large factories couldn't live without them.
My schedule on F-5 sanded to fine grit is: stain (by hand, perhaps 1 hour), shellac sealer (airbrushed - 15 minutes), binding scraping, then two to four layers of oil varnish (15 minutes of brush application per layer plus two-three days of curing, UV booth would cure it overnight), light sanding with 600-1200 grit to remove any irregularities - 1-2 hours handwork, then two to four hour long french polishing sessions (can be all in one day with 1-2 hours drying time in between).
I would add that well chosen oil varnish applied with airbrush will level very nicely and will need very little sanding before french polishing.
I prefer hand brushing and less varnish so some brush strokes or tiny runs may remain to be sanded flat and I don't try to fill finish prefectly where bindings got scraped that would require too much finish so some evidence remains.
To sum it up, if everything goes right and using UV curing booth the instrument could go out for setup in 10-14 days from beginning of the process.
Varnishing can be tricky and requires someone with lots of experience to apply without one of MANY possible problems while spraying industrial finishes is straightforward and forgiving and that is why factories prefer that.

[Jim Hudson]

Hand applied varnish/french polish simply looks better to my eye than lacquer. It at least appears to allow the wood to still look like wood. Whether there is a real sonic difference is, of course, in the ears of the beholder. Catalysed lacquer, while reported to be the thinnest and hardest finish available, makes me feel like the wood is under there somewhere, but again, subjective to the beholder. To the extent that making and experiencing music is to some extent a visual medium, it could be important/valuable. I just feel more musical with a beautiful instrument in my hands. On the other hand, dwc makes a good point concerning the application of the instrument. It seems clear that "picked" instruments sustain more wear and tear than "bowed" ones ...

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Adrian - Yor remark about finish 'thickness' should be well understood by any builder (IMHO). I've heard mention that the finish (lacquer) of Weber instruments is pretty thin,but it looks very thick when you look at the dark colour. It just gives the impression of a heavy finish. All finishes should be sufficient to seal the wood against any ingress by moisture or dirt,& that's about it.
However - over decades,much controversy has gone on about the Varnish finish on Strads. etc. Violins adding to their tone - so,do we believe that nothing similar happens to Varnished mandolins ??.
Another job for Mulder & Scully !,
Ivan

[Nashville]

I was in the Artisan Guitars store just a bit south of Nashville one day (https://artisanguitars.com/) and they were trying to explain to me the difference between varnish and lacquer finish. They let me play identical Collings guitar and mandolin models in both varnish and lacquer.

Seems like a pretty good A-B test. The woods and construction are identical in both guitars and both F model mandolins. Only difference was the finish. I don't remember the exact model #'s because I'm not up on Collings models, but suffice to say they were certainly high quality instruments.

Well all I can say is the difference was stunning. Both the varnish guitar and varnish mandolin sounded like a slice of heaven, so warm and smooth and just gorgeous. Now that's not to say the lacquer instruments didn't sound great, they did. They all sounded great, but the varnish sound made me willing to pay the extra money for it.

Of course, if I never heard the varnish sound I would never know the difference and be perfectly happy. But now I am convinced there is a reason that varnish finish is the gold standard. Sure it's subjective, but so is just about everything about music.

[multidon]

There is a difference in material cost, with fine quality oil varnish being somewhat more expensive than an equivalent amount of lacquer. But the vast majority of the extra cost is in labor and time. You can spray two or three coats of lacquer in a day. With varnish, you have to leave 24-48 hours between coats until it is ready for another coat. And you have to scuff each coat of varnish to get the next one to stick, because it is a mechanical bond that needs tooth, unlike the chemical bond of lacquer where one coat melts into another. Really, even with multiple coats of lacquer, what you really have is one coat, because all the coats have melted together. And because lacquer is solvent based, it actually dries in a conventional sense once all the solvent has evaporated. It still requires more curing time than you might imagine, though. But a lacquer instrument can be ready to be played after a couple of weeks, whereas an oil varnished instrument may take a couple of months. And oil varnish does not dry like lacquer. There is some evaporation involved, but the carrier substances are volatile oils rather than solvents. Once the oils are gone, the resins left behind cure with exposure to ultraviolet light. This can take quite a while. As they say, time is money, as that instrument sits around not getting sold because the finish is too soft. If you French polish over their varnish, that is even more labor but it puts a hard coat of shellac over the varnish, which might be still somewhat soft but makes it so the instrument can be handled while the varnish continues to cure.

Hope this helps explain the upcharge.

[Tom Sanderson]

So, back to my original question, how much more of a dollar value do you think varnish adds to a used mandolin?

[multidon]

Tom, it depends on the make and how much the maker upcharge is. Then the general rule of 2/3 of new for retail used applies. I answered that question above. If you cannot find the specific upcharge on the maker's web site, I think the Weber charges are a good general rule. Thus, for a used high quality A style, it would be reasonable to pay an extra 1000 used, based on 1500 Weber upcharge. These guidelines would not apply to Gibsons, which often appreciate in value, or limited editions of any make, where only a small number of a given model were finished in varnish. In those cases the open market determines the value, and research would be necessary.

[Steve Ostrander]

For Weber the up charge on an A style is 1500 and for an F style 2500. So based on that probably 1000 extra used A style and 1500 or so for F style.

This was multidon's reply and I would agree with it.

[lenf12]

I would add that well chosen oil varnish applied with airbrush will level very nicely and will need very little sanding before french polishing.

Here is where I think a lot of progress can be made with air brush spraying rather than building up several coats by hand which is so time consuming. It could cut a lot of the costs out varnish vs. lacquer finishing.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[HoGo]

Here is where I think a lot of progress can be made with air brush spraying rather than building up several coats by hand which is so time consuming. It could cut a lot of the costs out varnish vs. lacquer finishing.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

Folks forget there are many kinds of varnish and spirit varnishes work EXACTLY like nitro lacquer. Once I varnished f-5 mandolin with shellac based varnish in two days. I strung it up on day five or six from beginning with no problems. I sprayed initial 3 or 4 coats with airbrush in half hour intervals let it dry to the next day and finished it with french polish, two sessions were enough to get very thin finish to 95% of my standards (it was StewMac kit mandolin that friend gave up building half way through the build and asked me to give it a go so I didn't spend any extra time). Thre were some pores not completely filled but one more FP session after thoroughh drying would take care of that.
Oil varnishes can be applied very effectively as well with spraying equipment. Many modern spar varnishes have formulations that don't require the scuff sanding if recoated within given time frame (like Epifanes varnish). So you can apply four coats in four days and sand on day five if you put it into strong UV chamber for the night. This is really more than you need for safety during sanding as oil varnish doesn't dry by evaporation and resulting layer is as almost thick as the application thickness (depending on thinners used for spraying), while with spirit varnish the layer shrinks to less than 50% of application thickness. Most oil varnishes can be buffed to shine without addition of FP. but in case you want it you can again airbrush thin layer of shellac and use FP just to shine it up.
I still prefer hand brushing as I hate cleaning the airbrush after spraying oil varnish (did that just once)
Violin makers often use as little as two layers of colored oil varnish on their antiqued violins and can finish the violin within a week, but surface texture is not just accepted but rather required in high end violins.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Adrian - "...spirit varnishes work EXACTLY like nitro lacquer..". Thanks Adrian - that exactly the type of varnish that my Lebeda is finished with. It's a very thin coating & allows the grain to show through,something which my Weber doesn't do to any great degree,
Ivan

[HoGo]

Ivan, that's difference in application skill. You can apply the finish thin or thick, no matter what material. Factories with high output prefer thicker as they won't have to be all that carefull during finish sanding and buffing and the finish will flow into any imperfections and fill them. Saves time.
I read that first generations of nitro lacquers actually contained good portion of shellac and other softer resins together with the nitrocellulose to make it less brittle. Modern lacquers contain synthetic resins and plasticizers.

[Tom Haywood]

Someone who used to sell new and used mandolins advised me to lacquer mine because, he said, 99% of buyers are looking for bling no matter what they say, and lacquer has a brighter, cleaner, "blingier" look. I've done it both ways and I far prefer the look and sound of varnish, but I think he is right. That tells me the only value added is for the few buyers who want varnish and that there is no value added for everyone else.