Dudenbostel and Kemnitzer - great minds thinking alike.

[UlsterMando]

Mr. Dudenbostel has written in the past that both he and Mr. Kemnitzer
originally used the same fine July 9th '23 instrument as their model.

I have no idea where this instrument is now, but as it was coincidentally
such an inspiration to not one but two of the world's finest contemporary
luthiers, I can't help wondering if any recordings of this mandolin are known.
It would be fascinating to listen and to have an insight into what sound it has
that is so compelling.

Without wishing to intrude upon the privacy of past or present owners, it would
also be of interest to hear something of the history of the instrument. Has it been
played by prominent mandolinists ? Is it perhaps one of those great mandolins
which are known by name or reputation as is the case with the likes of "Crusher" ?

Any information would be of great interest.
Thanks.

[Ivan Kelsall]

If i remember correctly,Bill Monroe's Lloyd Loar mandolin was signed July 9th 1923 - but there were probably a few others signed on the same date,just a few serial # apart.
I just had a quick look through the Mandolin Archive & pages 2 & 3 list 37 July 9th 1923 Lloyd Loar signed mandolins begining serial # 73719 ''The Bellson'' Loar through to serial # 74002 (not all 'consecutive' #) :- http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/...ins.pl?loar:1: - Bill Monroe's mandolin was serial # 73987.
That's a fair # of mandolin 'signed' on that date - so,which one ?,
Ivan

[UlsterMando]

Thanks Ivan, the game is afoot . . .

Chris Thile's Dude#5 is perhaps the most famous mandolin in the post Loar era.
It was his genius which elevated the mandolin onto another plane in terms of
technical virtuosity and range of expression; an attainment matched and accomodated
by this sublime instrument.
I hope that we will hear it again.

Presumably#5, being an early serial number, was modelled on the July9th '23 in question.
I am not a Star Wars fan but . . .
having heard from Luke, wouldn't it be fascinating to hear from Darth!

[JeffD]

I would think Monroe's would be the most famous in the post Loar era. In fact Monroe is the reason anyone cares about Loars.

[f5joe]

Mr. Dudenbostel has written in the past that both he and Mr. Kemnitzer
originally used the same fine July 9th '23 instrument as their model.

I have no idea where this instrument is now, but as it was coincidentally
such an inspiration to not one but two of the world's finest contemporary
luthiers, I can't help wondering if any recordings of this mandolin are known.
It would be fascinating to listen and to have an insight into what sound it has
that is so compelling.

Without wishing to intrude upon the privacy of past or present owners, it would
also be of interest to hear something of the history of the instrument. Has it been
played by prominent mandolinists ? Is it perhaps one of those great mandolins
which are known by name or reputation as is the case with the likes of "Crusher" ?

Any information would be of great interest.
Thanks.

The mandolin in question is #73747, July 9, 1923. Please see the link attached and post 1065 and beyond. Lynn modeled my Dudenbostel #2 on #73747. #2 will be 20 years old this year. #73747 is quite a good Loar.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...the-Day/page43

[stevedenver]

I would think Monroe's would be the most famous in the post Loar era. In fact Monroe is the reason anyone cares about Loars.

It would seem, that since monroes mandolin was a Loar, by definition, it's not a post loar era mandolin like a dude or Gil or nugget, etc

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

#73747 is exceptional, however it wasn't that this particular one "moved" me in such a way to seek it out to use as a pattern. It was simply the one that was available. I've since measured a number of other Loars, but I still often use the graduations from 73747. What I've found is from the Loars I've measured, they are very close to each other in graduations. There are some variations...Crusher and the Haney fern are two that are quite a bit out of the norm. You try to learn something from each one. Sometimes you learn what works, sometimes what doesn't work, and that is just as important! Many great guitars and mandolins were made available to me by our late friend to study over the years. His generosity was greatly appreciated. Not only that, but discussing ideas and such with him really got me thinking on many occasions. I really miss him.

[UlsterMando]

Thanks Lynn, questions answered.
I have followed F5Joe's link and respectfully note the circumstances
surrounding the history of this instrument.
Thank you very much for this information.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I have to say that personally,i prefer the tone of Chris Thile's Dudenbostel mandolin over the tone of the Loar he plays. It's my preferred tone of the 2. Maybe it's because i haven't heard Chris Thile playing the Loar as much as i've heard him playing the Dudenbostel,but that Dudenbostel is one heck of an impressive mandolin by any standard.
Here's Nickel Creek with CT on the Dude. & it's the perfect tone for me. If, as CT said,he used to have what he called a ''sissy setup'' = very low action,then the tone is all the more amazing,
Ivan

[HoGo]

Chris' Dudenbostels were certainly not modelled after Loar. They were Engelmann spruce if I remember correctly and that makes for major difference in tone (other than the sissy setup).

[UlsterMando]

If no Engelman was used in Loar signed mandolins, I consider
the decision to use it for the Thile Dudes a very worthwhile departure.

I'm with Ivan on the preference for the Dude voice. I've heard Chris
play the Loar up close and it is amazing, he is literally amazing, but for me there
is a stronger core to the Dude sound. When he really plays hard on the
Loar it just seems easier to go right through the tone and bottom out.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From UlsterMando. - "..stronger core to the Dude sound". You summed it up better than i did !. ''More substance & depth '' to the overall tone of the Dude.(IMHO) . If i ever 'meet it',the owner better have it glued to him,it's a stunning mandolin,
Ivan

[UlsterMando]

If Loar 73747 and its graduations were the pattern for the early Dudes and
Loar instruments were never topped in Engelmann, then it seems like an
inspired move to use this wood rather than the "orthodox" red spruce
which I understand was the norm in Loars.

The sound of 73747 was known so presumably it was thought that the use
of Engelmann was going to produce something, what shall we say, warmer; different; more?

The results speak for themselves. Dude#5 is epic. In mandolin discussions this is one of those
rare times that we may seriously be considering the question of a contemporary luthier not only
matching but surpassing the bench mark set by Loar mandolins.

The Dude abides.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

Thanks for all the kind words folks. I will say that number 5 was an experiment in using Engelmann spruce. In my vast prior experience (4 mandolins.... ha!) were built with red spruce, like the Loars. I wanted to see what Engelmann would do, as I'd built guitars with it before and really liked the results. It was warmer, more complex, and just a "pretty" tone, for lack of a better term. So, the individual who had placed an order for what would have been #5 acquired a different instrument and cancelled his order. So, I decided to do an Engelmann mandolin for myself. I followed Loar specs and the graduations from 73747. I actually finished #5 the evening before IBMA and ran into Chris in Louisville and he came up to my room and played it.....at which point it was less than 24 hours old. I knew I had something different in this mandolin, and I knew I liked what I was hearing. I've built a number of guitars and mandolins over the years with Engelmann, but not as many as even I thought. Will Kimble prodded me to look it up one day and I was surprised by how few I'd used Engelmann on. When presented with spruce options, it seems red spruce is the #1 choice, and the overwhelming response when the others are suggested is "Gibson didn't do that", and likewise for guitars "Martin didn't do that". If I had a dollar for every time I heard that.... oh well. That said, my F-5 (#1) is red spruce, because, what else are you going to build your first mandolin with? But, my A-5 (#17, the first A-5 I built) is Swiss spruce, which is very Engelmann -like. I'm building a 000 guitar for me and my son (which may take a loooong time to complete). I'm using a Carpathian top on it. There is life outside of red spruce. It's a fine wood and has it's place, and I like it a lot. I like the differences in tone with various woods. If Baskin Robbins only had one flavor, a trip there would be pretty boring.

[UlsterMando]

Great info . . . so do I understand correctly that #1 to #4 were all red spruce?

[Ken Waltham]

[QUOTE=Lynn Dudenbostel I actually finished #5 the evening before IBMA and ran into Chris in Louisville and he came up to my room and played it.....at which point it was less than 24 hours old. I knew I had something different in this mandolin, and I knew I liked what I was hearing.
I remember being there in the room. Thile was so young, and he played and played and played, constantly phenomenal stuff.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

Yes, the first 4 were red spruce. Regarding Carpathian spruce, it's kind of interesting. It's picea abies, which is the predominant spruce in western and eastern Europe. It's sold as German spruce, Italian spruce, Swiss alpine spruce, Carpathian spruce, and by many other names, I'm sure. Even though it's pretty much the same species (some may argue that it's hybridized over the years), each region produces a different quality in the wood. The wood from Romania, which I use, can be light weight and tight grained like Englemann, or somewhat wider grain, stiff/hard/heavier like red spruce. I've never encountered Engelmann as hard and stiff as some of the Carpathian.
I really dislike the wood grading system. Some will grade B up thru AAA, some up to AAAAA, some call their "best" wood "artist grade". I really like to pick out my spruce in person and handle/tap, flex (guitar tops), and choose based on what I think will make the best instrument. The top I'm putting on my guitar right now is a AA, because it had a brilliant tap tone. But, what is a AA top in Carpathian would probably be graded much higher in red spruce. Seems there is just more "pretty" wood in Romania. If this top had been red spruce of this quality, it would have cost 4x more, at least.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

Ken... yes, we went up to Louisville together that year, didn't we? You were at my house when I strung it up the previous night as I remember. We had a mini "Loarfest" in the basement on Thursday or Friday night. That was a lot of fun. Randy had #4 with him and Chris came up to the room, dumped out a bag of picks on the bed, and played them both for an hour or so.

[Nick Gellie]

Lynn

Really appreciate you taking openly about the woods you use for your tops. We have all got a lot out of this thread.

Thanks

Nick

[Ken Waltham]

Ken... yes, we went up to Louisville together that year, didn't we? You were at my house when I strung it up the previous night as I remember. We had a mini "Loarfest" in the basement on Thursday or Friday night. That was a lot of fun. Randy had #4 with him and Chris came up to the room, dumped out a bag of picks on the bed, and played them both for an hour or so.

Yes, I was amazed by his playing, and he was quite young! I remember the smile on your face when when you strung it up. I may have been the first civilian to play it! Yay!
Miss those times...