New carbon fiber mandolins

[Chinslip]

Hi everyone. I built my first Carbon fiber mandolin last summer and the second one was just finished a week ago. The second has a blue mirage carbon for the top of sound board and top of headstock. It also has a matte finish. Please let me know what you think and please me honest. Would I be able to sells them?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WQZWRfYLqHM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KXIPmars7d4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K8m5PepGYfs

[Jstring]

They certainly look well-made... I'm impressed...

Would anyone buy them? It depends upon how they SOUND...

Make a decent recording of a good musician playing some songs and chords, and I'm sure we could give you some honest feedback...

[Chinslip]

3 video clips just added. Don't know how they sound as they were taken using an iPad

[gtani7]

3 video clips just added. Don't know how they sound as they were taken using an iPad

Pretty good sound, tho I'd like to hear a take with a decent large diaphragm condensor. CF cellos are supposed to really project, is yours pretty loud? Maybe you should hit the summer festival circuit in your part of the woods

Also, given it's CF, the pickguard looks a little odd

And youtube has a few CF mandolin vids. This one doesn't have CF plates, but does have "fluorocarbon strings... bracing is a carbon fiber fan lattice"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOEeRkspjPA

[Chinslip]

The pick guard is made of wasp cf so is the headstock. This one is loud and hard. The one without the pick guard has a copper wire in the fiber and the sound is lower, softer and smooth. Give me a clue please on what a large diaphragm condenser is?��

[Paul Busman]

Heck yes you could sell those! I'd love one.

[EdSherry]

Give me a clue please on what a large diaphragm condenser is?��

A large-diaphragm condenser ("LDC") is a type of microphone, contrasted with dynamic, ribbon, and small-diaphragm condenser ("SDC") microphones. Some well-known high-end LDCs are the Neumann U-87 and the AKG C-414. They're often used for high-end recording, though some engineers prefer SDCs like the Neumann 84 and 184 for mandolin.

[bingoccc]

I would love a CF mando but, price is the issue. My bias would be to pay less than a good wood mando costs.

[mrmando]

Would you build one with a classical scale length (13")?

If so, I might know a potential customer.

[Ron McMillan]

Feedback as requested, lumps and all, 'in my opinion' to be understood as given for all comments:

1. The mandolin with the pickguard sounds different, less 'tubby', less bass-heavy. I wonder why.
2. The pickguard takes away from the overall visual appeal. The weave of the cf is one of the big attractions of the carbon-fibre mandolin, and I think the pickguard spoils that.
3. The Sparrow wording is too big, in the wrong plane, and (sorry) adds an amateurish look to an otherwise very professional creation. I'd pay a graphic designer to come up with something small, beautiful and distinctive to go at the top of the headstock in the traditional manner. Perhaps this could be a variation on your sparrow logo.
4. Somehow the shape of the rounded headstock top doesn't work for me. I think I would look at 1920s Gibson A headstocks for inspiration.
5. The big clunky metallic tuners are indelicate and inappropriate (again, this is highly subjective, only my opinion - please don't take offence)
6. I much prefer the bridge with the smaller, unobtrusive thumb wheels
7. A more expensive tailpiece would add a lot to the looks and professional appeal of the instruments. It's no coincidence that more and more builders are opting for the James tailpiece; it cries out 'quality' in a way that less expensive tailpieces cannot match
8. The importance of a precise weave at the 'seams' cannot be over-emphasised. The 'blurry' look of the weave joints around the edges of the top plate on the mandolin with the pickguard would put a lot of people off (for aesthetic reasons alone; I know the appearance says nothing about structural integrity). Is that why the one without the pickguard is refinished black around the edge of the top? The only other guy who made c-f mandolins commercially used to do a kind of gloss-finished sunburst effect around that top edge. Maybe he did that to cover over imperfections in the matching of the weave? If so, a leaf out of his book might be worth taking.
9. Could you sell them? Absolutely. They sound great. As others have noted, you would benefit from getting a very good player to put one of your instruments through its paces on video under good sound recording conditions, with lots of variety in playing to include melody up and down the fretboard and chords in all their variations up and down the neck.

Please take the feedback as constructive criticism, for that's what it is meant to be. I'm impressed! Good luck.

[EdHanrahan]

... The Sparrow wording is too big, in the wrong plane, and adds an amateurish look ...

Reminds me of when Fender re-did the headstock logos, in the '60s or early '70s, to show up better on television. They were a bit more legible, but lot less classy looking.

My brother, and many others, would likely argue that the bird is NOT a sparrow. Finch, maybe? Beats me.

But lots of more helpful comments above. Hope it works out!

[Chinslip]

thank you very much guys for the help. This is exactly what i was looking for. No offense taken. Many of the things mentioned I knew before but was complacent to fix. the mando with the pick guard was the first one and has bracing on the inside making the top a bit too stiff. the flat finish mando has no braces and has copper wire weaved into the CF. this is why they sound so different. the difference is even more significant in person. I don't hate this sound. the CF distortion at the corner was caused by a loose grade of CF. I'm not using this CF anymore. I'm not making excuses for the problems. I'm learning as i go along and learning from you guys as well. Again, thank you very much for the ideas.

Norm

[Chinslip]

Is it not customary to have the name on the headstock?

[billhay4]

It is customary to have a name or logo on the headstock, but I agree with the above comments on yours. It's too big and in the wrong plane. A small logo or name oriented the other way will work better. I also would like to see a headstock re-design but realize the CF may limit your design parameters.
These will sell depending on your price point as the workmanship and sound is good.
Good luck.
Bill

[Chinslip]

HI guys, it's been awhile since my last post. I thought I would give an update on my current project with hope to get input from you. The attached picture is of my latest endeavour. It has bright copper wire woven in the carbon. I need your help choosing a tailpiece that will match the copper or at least not clash with it. I'm looking at getting a James tailpiece but not sure on style or color. I don't want anything too flashy and was hoping to get the nickel finish...any ideas? I would also like to get the relic nickel tuners with black knobs from stewmac to go along...opinions? Ideas? The headstock will not have the SPARROW on it anymore. Only the logo will be there. Should it be at the top or right in the Center? Thanks

Sorry for the poor picture, the copper is as bright as a brand new penny

[Rob Norton]

That's very cool! I was just looking at Elderly's assortment of tailpieces, and wonder if the Allen TR-2 might be a good choice. The V pattern of the string attachments might go nicely with your grain pattern.

[carbonpiou]

Welcome to the world of carbon-making, ChinSlip! Welcome to this world full of discoveries and inovations.

Since I am French and I am not very proficient in translation, it will take me some time to really understand all that is written in your publication that I have just discovered. I therefore ask you a little time to answer in detail and share my own experiences in the field of composite materials applied to violin making.

I just watched (and listened!) Youtube videos. I fully recognize the sound characteristic of carbon mandolins.

In the meantime, just a few pictures of some of the instruments I made (I am not a professional luthier and I do not sell instruments.) This is just for my personal use!

[Chinslip]

Hi Rob, the concern is with the color of the tailpiece against the bright copper in the carbon. Do you think it may clash? Thanks

[Chinslip]

Jean-luc, le français est ma langue maternelle.

[carbonpiou]

Let the anglophile members of this forum forgive us! With ChinSlip, we will exchange some words in our common language: French. Above all, please, do not take this for a brand of rudeness towards you!

Comme je l'ai dit dans ma première réponse, je ne suis pas du tout luthier professionnel, mais juste un passionné de musique qui balaye très large (du violon très classique à la guitare hard-rock...) et qui profite aujourd'hui de sa retraite pour vivre un rêve de gosse: faire de la lutherie.
Ayant passé une majeure partie de ma vie professionnelle dans le monde des matériaux composites (automobile, bâteaux, aviation, pièces techniques, etc...) ma première idée a bien entendu été de mettre à profit cette expérience et d'utiliser ces matériaux.
Parmi mes gros défauts (un caractère de "cochon" en particulier !) j'ai quand même conservé le réflexe de l'humilité et du respect absolu d'autrui. C'est pour celà que je me garderais bien de porter un jugement ou une critique sur l'avis ou le travail de quelqu'un. Je ne connais pas un luthier et encore moins un musicien qui ne mettra pas, en permanence et dans toutes circonstances, toutes ses "tripes" dans ce qu'il fait.

Tout ceci pour dire, en résumé, que malgré mes années d'expérience dans le travail et l'utilisation du stratifié carbone (puisque c'est le sujet qui nous intéresse !), je ne prétends absolument pas avoir la science infuse ! Mais j'aime également transmettre ce que je sais, ce que j'ai appris et ce que les échecs, en particulier m'ont apporté comme convictions.
Dans ce but, j'avais réalisé, il y a déjà quelques années, un site sous forme de "pages perso"
Je te donne le lien.

http://lutheriecarbone.monsite-orange.fr/index.html

Ceci était destiné aux néophytes et autres débutants. Ce n'est, de toute évidence, pas ton cas !! Mais si ça peut t'aider.....
De toutes façons, je suis intimement persuadé que toutes les expériences font avancer. C'est bien pour cette raison que je ne fais jamais deux fois la même chose....

Juste une question, qui pour moi est de la plus grande importance, concernant tes réalisations: quelle résine emploies-tu ?
J'ai également écrit un article à ce sujet, destiné à répondre aux nombreuses question qui m'étaient posées par les visiteurs du site. Si tu veux, je peux le poster ici.

Un grand bravo en tous cas !!
J'ai pas trop bien compris l'histoire du cuivre.... Même en traduction automatique, ça reste vraiment confus. Tu peux me l'expliquer en français ?

[Chinslip]

Bon matin Jean-luc. Tu peux m'envoyer un message personel pour questions diriger a moi personelment. Pour raison du forum et de questions generals je doit continue en englais. For my English speaking friends this thread will continue in English thanks.

[Marty Jacobson]

Chinslip, if you have a jewler's saw or scroll saw, you can easily make your own tailpiece from copper. Or you could get a raw brass Allen tailpiece and get it plated in copper. Combined with copper headplate inlays/decoration, it would look very nice. A couple of coats of Nikolas woodwind lacquer will keep the copper from oxidizing, or you could go crazy and make it verdigris from the beginning.
That being said, I don't think gold or brass hardware would clash with the copper too much.

A question for you and Jean-Luc:
Have you experimented with using anisotropic (non-woven) carbon fiber layers between the woven layers? One of the reasons why wood sounds the way it does is because it's not the same stiffness in both directions (along and across the grain). My plan for experimenting with carbon fiber was to use very thin outer layers of twill with plain unwoven carbon fiber between, so the stiffness topology is more similar to that of wood. I don't know if that is preferable, but it seems like a worthwhile experiment.

[Dave Greenspoon]

I'd love to see a $1000.00 USD price point cf mando. I'd also pay a little more to have my provided pickup installed during the build. Put in active electronics and have it under $1400.00 and I'll find a way to make it happen.

Some aesthetics: the black matte or gloss deserves either continuity or accent with the metal. A black tailpiece and black-button tuners should be part of the package. The exception is to go with gold tailpiece and gold machines with the black buttons.

The snakehead style headstock is certainly a classic, but a few other interesting designs have also come out from folks who seem to get by the purist expectations of the A/F-5 Police. Get inspired and get creative; you're not done there yet. I agree that a graphics person is a good call for the script design, etc.

Good luck. Please keep posting!

[Chinslip]

Dave Greespoon, I'd love to sell you my "Midnight Blue" mandolin for $1000 USD. This is the one with the matte finish.

[JeffD]

My ignorance showing:

Why are the fretboards made of wood? It would seem (to this idiot anyway) that a fretboard would be the first thing to make of carbon fiber, because its shape stability and structural integrity are so important to intonation, and it does not have to transmit any vibrations. Its not directly part of the tone quality.

But the reverse, I can't get my head around, carbon fiber for everything but the fretboard. That leaves the mandolin still vulnerable to changes in temperature and humidity. To a lesser degree than a wood mandolin, but if the goal of carbon fiber is lightness and invulnerability, the fretboard is an odd thing to leave in wood.