It's official - ZOUK!

[DavidKOS]

On another thread discussing the name of the "Irish Bouzouki" has led me ( a badge-carrying member of Lark Camp's Ethnic Police), based upon a quote from Robin Bullock, to make a serious pronouncement:

The Irish Bouzouki will henceforth be known simply as the "Zouk".

Use of the term "bouzouki" will now, as is proper, be limited to the Greek instrument - all other pseudo-bouzoukis will be called by an alternate term. The number of strings, tuning nor neck length does not matter, under the new rules all are to be called simply "zouk".

Proclamation to take effect immediately.

from the other thread:

" (I suppose a case could be made for "cittern" being marginally less inaccurate than "bouzouki" since "cittern" refers to an instrument family while "bouzouki" is the name of a specific instrument, but let's not split hairs.)" - quote from article

And that instrument is a BOWL back Greek instrument! DAD or CFAD tuning.

Used to play zeibekikos and hasapikos, not jigs and reels.

I still say that from an organological POV, the Irish bouzouki has mutated enough to no longer be a "bouzouki" in the true sense of the term, thus I proclaim now and forever that the Irish version is called "zouk".

That settles it for me.

[Beanzy]

That's ok as long as you're only chattin to yourself.
But you need to say the word Bazooukee then you'll get what it's really called in Ireland. Americanizing it won't wash back home. We need to be able to savour the word, hang on to vowels and give it a twist as it leaves the mouth, otherwise it's just nuts and bolts vocab and not worth a row of beans. In Ireland we make words and names longer if we can just for the kicks. Even when we shorten someones name we'll then stick a few random letters on the end just to give it a lift.

If you wanted an alternative for the Irish one then just call it a bazookey as I bet that's how it gets written out anyway.

[DavidKOS]

Thanks for the response - but I still say that since there are "Zoukfests" and such, that the word "Zouk" is the best term for the Irish flatback long neck lute.

Y'all realize I'm making fun here?

[Bertram Henze]

Language is all about local perception of the world and local context. In an Irish session, anybody will accept the name of bouzouki on the grounds of sound - looks don't matter to anybody.

Good luck with a global campaign for real language - I henceforth declare that Budweiser ist not beer because it is neither brewed in the Czech town of Budweis nor are it's contents compliant with the 4-ingredient rule of water, malt, hops and yeast.

[Beanzy]

Y'all realize I'm making fun here?

Scattin' is what it's all about. But you've got to keep a straight face the whole time. You can't go about showing your hand by post #3, that's 2nd division stuff there

I was going to add that even the word "bazookee" isn't nearly long enough for some discussions and is often prefixed by "bleedin" for added effect; as in "would ya listen to yer man on the bleedin bazooky"

[DavidKOS]

- I henceforth declare that Budweiser ist not beer because it is neither brewed in the Czech town of Budweis nor are it's contents compliant with the 4-ingredient rule of water, malt, hops and yeast.

Well, I certainly agree! Bud is maybe the worst beer ever, "the choicest product of the chemists' art".

[Mike Anderson]

As Miles Davis would (probably) have said, "call it anything."

As for Bud or almost any megabrewer product - just as bad here in Canada BTW - don't get me started! Carbonated horse pee with tons of sugar.

Actually real horse pee would have some flavor; I think synthetic pee is used.

[Jacob]

[foldedpath]

Zoukini? The diminutive suggests a shorter scale, so a Zoukini would actually be an octave mandolin, wouldn't it?

Now I'm really confused...

[derbex]

You want to call it a courgette?

You say tomato, I say tomato....

Beanzy, surely you wouldn't actually spell it bazookee, maybe more dbhueaoouzbhbkhea ? With the necessary diacritics of course.

[zoukboy]

Thanks for the response - but I still say that since there are "Zoukfests" and such, that the word "Zouk" is the best term for the Irish flatback long neck lute.

Y'all realize I'm making fun here?

As the person who founded and named "ZoukFest," I can't very well take exception to your suggestion, can I?

But, uh... good luck with getting folks to go along with that. ;-)

[Beanzy]

Beanzy, surely you wouldn't actually spell it bazookee, maybe more dbhueaoouzbhbkhea ? With the necessary diacritics of course.

Nah, the important thing would be to spell it differently as often as possible to throw them off the scent of any accuracy or consistency. When asked what it is then it's a fangledurdle, or if they're filling in the customs form while importing one then it's one of them bazooka yokes.

[Steve-o]

That Zouk has a scroll.

[foldedpath]

That Zouk has a scroll.

My Zoukini (octave mandolin) has a scroll. See avatar at left. I am definitely going to start calling my OM a Zoukini now.

[Colin Lindsay]

I think we should just put the word Irish in front of any instrument, so I play Irish guitar, Irish waldzither, and Irish OM etc. It makes as much sense as calling the bouzouki Irish. This means that the 'folk' guitar should also be named the Irish guitar; however as a sub-division to acknowledge other cultures who may have a slightly better claim to the instrument we can add the locality or region name, so they're then classified as the Irish-Romanian bouzouki or the Irish Breton guitar, depending on where they're played and what is played on them. To further avoid confusion or generalisation we can also add the region, so it becomes for example the Irish / Northern Irish / Belfast bouzouki; therefore I could play the Irish / Northern Ireland / County Armagh bouzouki, as it may by now have developed a local accent, but to distinguish it from other local instruments I may have to call mine the Irish / Northern Irish / County Armagh / just outside Tandragee bouzouki to distinguish it from the Irish / Northern Irish / County Armagh / Keady variety that may play slightly different tunes.
Incidentally the popularity of the uileann pipes in movie soundtracks means they should now be referred to as the Hollywood Pipes, as someone obviously once brought a set across from Ireland, and now every bl**dy historical or weepy movie has them...
Does this also mean that the Fylde Egyptian guitar can't be used for Irish music?

[Bertram Henze]

I think we should just put the word Irish in front of any instrument...

The Irish have a way of assimilation - If we discuss this too heatedly, we'll all be Irish in the end.

[allenhopkins]

To me, eight-string instruments tuned GDAE (or slight variants thereof) are octave mandolins. It's not just body shape that differentiates the bouzouki as played around the eastern Mediterranean, from the instrument found commonly in Celtic music. Bouzouki tuning is fourths-and-a-third, basically; OM tuning is fifths. (Yeah, there are exceptions and variants, I know...)

So, long-scale or short-scale octave mandolins; call 'em "zouks" or "Irish bouzoukis" or whatever, still octave mandolins. Flat-back and flat/canted/carved top, eight strings, fifths tuning or slight variant thereof = octave mandolin.

Mind made up, don't try to confuse me with a lot of facts...

[Rob Meyer]

Allen, I agree with you 100%! Frankly, to the extend that idea, I am uncertain why a five course OM is called a cittern (which is really the name of a different instrument). Seven and eight string guitars are simply referred to as seven string or eight string guitars. They don't give them different names because they have more strings. So why not a five course OM?

[zoukboy]

The modern use of "cittern" for mandoid/zoukoid instruments was a concerted effort to separate a version of that instrument from the influence of Irish musicians playing bouzoukis. It has caught on and now is taken to mean a 5 course instrument but that was never the intent of the man who coined it, who used it for 4 and 5 course instruments of a shorter scale than most bouzoukis.

Whatever your feelings about the appropriation of the Greek bouzouki for Irish music it did happen and the term "bouzouki" is what most Irish musicians call the instrumnent (Irish musicians don't seem to need the qualifier "Irish" in front of it, though). I continue to use it because that is what it is called in the culture, and my use of it is a way of honoring that. Trying to purge its use in favor of "octave mandolin" or "cittern" is not only unlikely to be successful, it is a way of ignoring the history.

[Nick Gellie]

I am not sure that a simple pronouncement calling an Irish Bouzouki a Zouk based on a term by an American who plays a Sobell Cittern is a strong argument. It obviates the history of its development from a Greek Bouzouki in Ireland and England. I am not sure DavidKOS why you have such a bee in your bonnet about the term Irish Bouzouki. The term is here to stay whether you like it or not. Are you going to convince the hundred's of Irish bouzouki players in the US, Ireland, Canada, England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Japan, and Australia that they should call it something else. I don't think so.

[DavidKOS]

Whatever your feelings about the appropriation of the Greek bouzouki for Irish music it did happen and the term "bouzouki" is what most Irish musicians call the instrumnent (Irish musicians don't seem to need the qualifier "Irish" in front of it, though). I continue to use it because that is what it is called in the culture, and my use of it is a way of honoring that. Trying to purge its use in favor of "octave mandolin" or "cittern" is not only unlikely to be successful, it is a way of ignoring the history.

I am not sure DavidKOS why you have such a bee in your bonnet about the term Irish Bouzouki. The term is here to stay whether you like it or not. Are you going to convince the hundred's of Irish bouzouki players in the US, Ireland, Canada, England, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Japan, and Australia that they should call it something else. I don't think so.

Ah, mate, you caught me!

"I am not sure DavidKOS why you have such a bee in your bonnet about the term Irish Bouzouki"

Why - because I secretly wish that it was Greek music that got so popular worldwide, not Irish music (no put-down of Irish music implied nor intended) and that all you guys were playing Rebetiko and Laiko music instead!

As I said, I'd love to see Greek sessions all over the world, like Irish sessions.

But I also wish that Italian mandolin was as popular as Bluegrass mandolin. Ah, shucks, I wish it was MORE popular than BG!

I'm just jealous that everyone else's music is more popular than what I like.

[Rob Meyer]

Roger, I agree with you that trying to get everyone on board with calling an Irish bouzouki a long scale OM is not desirable, practical, or possible after so many years. That is what I call it too. Likewise with the cittern. However, my background in botanical nomenclature makes me want to classify these instruments in a more systematic way, but I usually just keep these thoughts to myself. �� ��

[zoukboy]

Roger, I agree with you that trying to get everyone on board with calling an Irish bouzouki a long scale OM is not desirable, practical, or possible after so many years. That is what I call it too. Likewise with the cittern. However, my background in botanical nomenclature makes me want to classify these instruments in a more systematic way, but I usually just keep these thoughts to myself. �� ��

I am sure you know that biological taxonomies don't really transfer well to culture. One of the challenges of organology has been getting away from the use of biological and evolutionary models for what are essentially examples of material culture. There are systematic approaches to the classification of musical instruments but they are moving toward a more semiotic approach.

[DavidKOS]

One of the challenges of organology has been getting away from the use of biological and evolutionary models for what are essentially examples of material culture. There are systematic approaches to the classification of musical instruments but they are moving toward a more semiotic approach.

It's a big challenge. Instruments do not evolve live biological organisms - some can sprout full-blown and have great influence in a short time, others can go through periods of ups and downs in interest and development, and then inventions like the accordion come along and take over large parts of the bagpipe and hurdy-gurdy tradition, for example. But then a few folks decide to regenerate interest in the hurdy-gurdy, just to choose one example.

I'm not convinced that semiotics is the answer either. I think Hank Bradley understood the dynamics and expressed it well in his book on applied ethnomusicology.

http://markdrubin.blogspot.com/2014/...-stealing.html

http://www.amazon.com/Counterfeiting.../dp/0962569402

[zoukboy]

It's a big challenge. Instruments do not evolve live biological organisms - some can sprout full-blown and have great influence in a short time, others can go through periods of ups and downs in interest and development, and then inventions like the accordion come along and take over large parts of the bagpipe and hurdy-gurdy tradition, for example. But then a few folks decide to regenerate interest in the hurdy-gurdy, just to choose one example.

I'm not convinced that semiotics is the answer either. I think Hank Bradley understood the dynamics and expressed it well in his book on applied ethnomusicology.

http://markdrubin.blogspot.com/2014/...-stealing.html

http://www.amazon.com/Counterfeiting.../dp/0962569402

well, I am not about to spend $60 for an out of print 48 page book just to find out whether I agree with him. It is not at all clear from the review you linked what Bradley's book has to do with organology. Care to synopsize?