$750 Collings mandolin case at elderlys

[Luna Pick]

Thanks, my mistake. Thought the street price had already jumped $100. But then, if they get it, good for them.

[Jeff Mando]

Listen to the latest FJ podcast wherein Walter Carter describes the recent appearance and history of the first sunburst Gibson Les Paul Standard, from May 1958, now for sale in his store (@ $625K!). Interesting for that alone, but also for Carter's analysis of the overall vintage guitar market, and more specifically the boutique guitar and mandolin markets. Great info.

https://www.fretboardjournal.com/pod...ntage-guitars/

Great interview with Walter Carter. It is worth listening to for his overly-honest assessment of the current vintage and boutique market. If you don't want to listen to the entire 36 minutes, the first part of the interview is focused on the Burst, then at about 21:30 his market analysis begins. Which I could go into, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

[darylcrisp]

Great interview with Walter Carter. It is worth listening to for his overly-honest assessment of the current vintage and boutique market. If you don't want to listen to the entire 36 minutes, the first part of the interview is focused on the Burst, then at about 21:30 his market analysis begins. Which I could go into, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

Jeff
feel free to go forth, i think we've worn the case out anyhow(lol).

thats a neat podcast,interesting

d

[Jeff Mando]

Thanks, Daryl. To me, his honesty was refreshing in that he describes a cautious market -- although it might be to his advantage to have instilled more optimism. He also rather bluntly compares certain boutique guitars to the stock market, very politely saying they may not be worth today what someone originally paid for them. He also mentions the limited amount of actual buyers, when talking about the rarest instruments -- bursts, herringbones, and flathead banjos. He didn't mention Loars, but I think it would be safe to put them in that category.

I think a lot of us got "into" the vintage instrument thing because we appreciated old instruments and also found them to be good investments. Carter mentions the days of buying something and reselling it for a profit a few months later are over. At the same time I think he is confident there will still be buyers for nice instruments.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Scott - "My goodness, you're sure full of yourself..". If ''being full of oneself'' means having the benefit of close to 25 years design & manufacturing experience,then that's me. Having said that it's no less than what folk are claiming for Bill Collings is it - lots of experience ?.
Nobody with any sense would fork out the 'mostly' huge cost of new tooling & manufacturing facilities - unless - they've decided that they need to control manufacture every step of the way,which is fine. Why would anybody want to spend huge amounts of cash reproducing what's already there ?. I can understand all this,IF,Collings are going to produce their own cases for their instruments plus,selling them to others as well,then it makes sense - they're going into competition with other makers. That hasn't been made clear at all.
As a last point - if it offends anybody's sensibilities that i call into question something that seems to me to be financially 'odd' (based on the current info.) then so be it. If you had my background in design & manufacturing you'd possibly think in the same manner.

From Eric C - "What does that have to do with "controlling absolutely everything" ?" Only if a manufacturer really needs to control everything including the manufacturing of the tooling,either by themselves or by another company, & the actual manufacturing & assembly of the item to be produced,would they decide to invest so much cash. As i mentioned,there are companies already geared up to make cases who could build to the Collings specification. I can't see anything wrong with that scenario. 100's of 1,000's of companies world wide do exactly that all the time - that's why Boeing don't make their own aircraft engines (as an example),

Ivan

[almeriastrings]

Surely the point is that there is no 'universal best' case? We all have different needs.

I need cases that will be OK in a truck sandwiched between speakers and other sound gear, and that are not black, but something that absorbs less heat in direct (very hot) sunlight. I also like something with good thermal padding, for the same reason. So, I find Pegasus, Calton and Hoffee cases suit my needs well. I also like something with a bit of internal storage space.

However... if I was looking for a truly beautifully made, and stylish case for less "heavy duty" use to keep a fine mandolin in - I'd seriously consider one of these. Collings is very detail-oriented and has exacting demands in terms of precision... so if he wanted to keep all this 'in house', then that's his decision. They are obviously finding a market!

[doc holiday]

Collings has bought thousands of cases from TKL over the years and no doubt passed on many customer complaints. Enough for sure, to think that a better case might be possible. Lighter weight, better fit, better latches. Kudos are definitely in order here, as they are for Calton, Hoffee, Hiscox, Pegasus and any other visionaries who thought something better might be possible.

[Scott Tichenor]

From Scott - "My goodness, you're sure full of yourself..". If ''being full of oneself'' means having the benefit of close to 25 years design & manufacturing experience,then that's me. Having said that it's no less than what folk are claiming for Bill Collings is it - lots of experience ?.
Nobody with any sense would fork out the 'mostly' huge cost of new tooling & manufacturing facilities - unless - they've decided that they need to control manufacture every step of the way,which is fine. Why would anybody want to spend huge amounts of cash reproducing what's already there ?. I can understand all this,IF,Collings are going to produce their own cases for their instruments plus,selling them to others as well,then it makes sense - they're going into competition with other makers. That hasn't been made clear at all.
As a last point - if it offends anybody's sensibilities that i call into question something that seems to me to be financially 'odd' (based on the current info.) then so be it. If you had my background in design & manufacturing you'd possibly think in the same manner.

Ivan

Thanks for proving my point.

So you're talking about a case you've never seen, passing judgements on a company owner you've never met--and from your statements--don't understand, and making wild claims that anyone could have the identical case built for them by (insert name here) various manufacturers, you don't know what their plans are with the cases, and you're an expert in all things manufacturing.

Cool.

You've derailed the conversation so if you wish to continue to do so, please start a separate thread calling out Bill Collings for his private business actions because I'm through with it.

[darylcrisp]

Here is one more case available thru Elderlys, I had been in contact earlier with Jeffrey Renton
Elderly Instruments
(888)473-5810
when I was trying to find one. He contacted Collings and they have this one, which is probably a prototype-has 3 latches rather than the end result of 2. He said cost would be $715.

So if someone wants one a little cheaper, and a little different-contact Jeff above.

(wow, check out the wood of that table)

[JFDilmando]

<we already have moderators in place>

From the forum posting guidelines:

- Discussions started with the specific purpose or that end up used specifically for the purpose of antagonizing or calling into question a moderator's control of this forum or the site owner's right to enforce forum policy is forbidden and may result in immediate and permanent loss of membership and posting privileges. If you have concerns regarding forum policy contact a moderator or the site owner privately.

[Austin Bob]

Nobody with any sense would fork out the 'mostly' huge cost of new tooling & manufacturing facilities - unless - they've decided that they need to control manufacture every step of the way,which is fine.

I don't know much about manufacturing cases, but it seems to me that Collins already has the woodworking equipment needed for the frame. The rest is mostly upholstery work, a lot of which can be done by hand until the volume justifies the additional equipment needed for automation. My oval has a square case that was handmade by the builder. It's heavy as heck due to being a plywood box, but it has held up well over the last 25 years.

I suppose that the logic (build or buy) can be applied to almost any company making a product today. Most likely they can get it made cheaper in a far off factory, but you are correct in they lose control of the process, and therefore the finished product.

[Perry]

Does anybody know if they plan to make an A style mandolin case? And would it fit my Kimble?

[Bernie Daniel]

.....I just pulled up the TKL website, and took notice to what is offered for the F style mandolin. If what I have experienced in regards to the guitar cases, as one climbs up the ladder to higher priced cases, the heavier they tend to get, and of course the nicer the inside becomes in regards to fabric, fit, etc . Not sure if they have different grades of quality of hardware.
TKL 3352 TKL Traveline F-Style Mandolin Case View Image 59.95

TKL 4651 TKL Black Belt Traditional A/F Mandolin Bag View Image 49.95

TKL 4751 TKL Black Belt Deluxe A/F Mandolin Bag View Image 64.95


TKL 6151-2 TKL Zero-Gravity Combination A/F-Style Mandolin Case View Image 109.95

TKL 8852 TKL Prestige Arch-Top F-Style Mandolin Case View Image 199.95

TKL 8852 CAMO TKL Prestige Arch-Top F-Style Mandolin Case (Camouflage) 274.95


TKL 8852 TW TKL Prestige Arch-Top F-Style Mandolin Case (Tweed) View Image 264.95

TKL 8952 TKL Professional Arch-Top Oblong F-Style Mandolin Case View Image 329.95

TKL 8952 TW TKL Professional Arch-Top Oblong F-Style Mandolin Case (Tweed) View Image 394.95

......

Daryl, interesting post -- I never did notice that TKL makes a "high end' case have you (or anyone else) ever seen one of the ~$400" professional quality" cases? If so description/comments about them?

[pglasse]

At one point Bill told me he wanted / planned to make them for his A-style mandos too. That was a conversation from well over a year ago, so who knows at this point...at least it was a positive thought. Whether it would fit your Kimble would be another matter -- might want to see if your Kimble fits in one of the cases that new Collings A's fit in.

I know I'd love to have one for my Monteleone Style B.

[Tom Sanderson]

I heard that Collings built a new building to manufacture their own cases. I think it's great that a company like Collings, who is a top notch, highly respected Guitar & Mandolin builder has now added cases to their line. I'll probably be buying one or more when they become more readily available.

[Bernie Daniel]

Does anybody know if they plan to make an A style mandolin case? And would it fit my Kimble?

Something I was wondering also. It is wonderful to have a high quality case with a great fit -- provided you happen to own a Collings mandolin? Everyone else maybe not so much?

I wonder what the case will cost if you buy it with a new Collings mandolin?

[doc holiday]

As of last Thanksgiving, there were forms & prototypes for Dreadnaught cases, OM cases and F mandolins. It may be a while (perhaps a long one) until cases are available for all the guitar models & perhaps the A case. For those of that persuasion, a toneguard will not fit. My Ellis A fits snugly & perfectly in the F case.

Bernie, in approximate terms, a Collings mandolin includes a case, so the cost of the new case would be $850 less whatever the cost of the included case is ($250-$300?) less 10%.

[Tom Sanderson]

I love my Pegasus A cases (I have 2) My Pegasus F case is a bit large. I'm thinking about a Collings case for my F

[Loudloar]

I haven't jumped in on this discussion because I had commented on this case when Bill announced the project and also when the prototype was shown at NAMM.

1. It's a REALLY nice case. Classic vintage styling but an updated interior with improved padding. Perfect workmanship. There is nothing like it on the market. I wish it had an oval lock. Just doesn't look right to me without one. Maybe it will be added when they get this project in full production.

2. It's not for everyone. (If you need a cheap case or a flight case, look elsewhere and be happy. No need to criticize the nicest case on the market.)

3. The price is entirely reasonable. (In fact Collings may not be making a profit on them.) This is modeled after a 1930's Geib Redline case and it costs about the same if you update the dollars. A 1937 F-4 was $100 and the shaped Redline case was $16.50 (16.5% of the cost of the instrument.) Do the math: a $5,000 mandolin that had a case costing 16.5% would equal $825. By the way, the oblong case was $38, that would equal $1,900 at 16.5% of $5K. That's what it costs to make a quality case. Today's buyers demand low-cost cases and TLK complies by cutting corners and reducing quality. Then people complain about the poor quality of their $125 TLK case.

My thoughts. Yours may differ, and that's fine.

Steve
https://www.facebook.com/groups/vint...strumentcases/
http://www.stevekirtley.org/vintagecases.htm

[darylcrisp]

I haven't jumped in on this discussion because I had commented on this case when Bill announced the project and also when the prototype was shown at NAMM.

1. It's a REALLY nice case. Classic vintage styling but an updated interior with improved padding. Perfect workmanship. There is nothing like it on the market. I wish it had an oval lock. Just doesn't look right to me without one. Maybe it will be added when they get this project in full production.

2. It's not for everyone. (If you need a cheap case or a flight case, look elsewhere and be happy. No need to criticize the nicest case on the market.)

3. The price is entirely reasonable. (In fact Collings may not be making a profit on them.) This is modeled after a 1930's Geib Redline case and it costs about the same if you update the dollars. A 1937 F-4 was $100 and the shaped Redline case was $16.50 (16.5% of the cost of the instrument.) Do the math: a $5,000 mandolin that had a case costing 16.5% would equal $825. By the way, the oblong case was $38, that would equal $1,900 at 16.5% of $5K. That's what it costs to make a quality case. Today's buyers demand low-cost cases and TLK complies by cutting corners and reducing quality. Then people complain about the poor quality of their $125 TLK case.

My thoughts. Yours may differ, and that's fine.

Steve
https://www.facebook.com/groups/vint...strumentcases/
http://www.stevekirtley.org/vintagecases.htm

hey Steve
look at my post above, # 109 , and check out those pictures. the new cases for sale have 2 latches, that one in the picture has a 3rd under the handle, appears somewhat oval and maybe a lock-is that what you are talking about?

I figure that case in # 109 is a prototype, there's no Collings outside badge either, so i figure its one of the early made ones when they were deciding on latches and how many to use.

d

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Loudloar - "Then people complain about the poor quality of their $125 TLK case.". TKL make cases at varying price points. If you want a cheap TKL,then that's what you buy. They do however make their TKL 'Professional' range, which is far more substantially made & of course costs extra. The buyers of the $125 cases could have paid more for a better case. Maybe TKL should raise the price of their own 'Professional' cases to $750 so folks 'appreciate' them more. My own TKL 'American Vintage' rectangular case, goes above the TKL Pro.standard. First Quality Music who comissioned the cases, specified additional plies top & bottom & steel reinforced corners. It cost me around $190 US 10 years ago. Currently a 'standard' TKL Pro.rect.case costs $189 US,
Ivan

[Mandobar]

The Cedar Creek case that comes with Collings mandolins is about $250 retail. Not "cheap" price-wise.

The problem with TKL/Cedar Creek is that they own the market having bought out most of their competitors. Nothing forces them to improve their quality. While Collings is now providing an alternative for their own instruments, there are lots of other builders who have to rely on what the rest of the limited market offers.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Mandobar - " Nothing forces them to improve their quality....". I agree - however,the fact that they're still in business means that a lot of folk are satisfied with the TKL cases & have been for a long time. That doesn't mean that TKL can sit back & relax. If their 'overall quality' falls off,they'll end up loosing a share of the market. Most companies stay afloat be either maintaining a standard,or improving on it,not by letting standards fall,but you made a good point,
Ivan

[Jess L.]

... modeled after a 1930's Geib Redline case and it costs about the same if you update the dollars. A 1937 F-4 was $100 and the shaped Redline case was $16.50...

For what it's worth, inflation calculator says 1937 F4 $100 equals $1,661.53 (huh) in 2016, and 1937 case at $16.50 equals $274.15 in 2016.

... the oblong case was $38, ...

Ah okay now we're getting somewhere - the aforementioned inflation calculator says $38 case equals $631.38 in 2016 dollars. Which is getting up into a similar price range as the case being discussed in this thread.

An aside - really "neither here nor there" but to add some perspective:

I've made a small number of custom cases, eons ago (for instruments I owned where I couldn't find satisfactory commercial/factory cases), it took a lot of work to get the quality I wanted, and also I had to pay more for the materials and supplies to build the cases because the commonly-available materials didn't have the quality and durability that I was looking for.

Why did I make my own cases? Some reasons:

1. It was something new to explore that I hadn't done before, and I liked the idea of a new challenge.
2. I wanted better durability, specific colors, fabrics (interior lining), degree of padding, latch types, and interior pocket configurations, that simply weren't available in any of the then-existing commercial cases.
3. Existing commercial cases didn't quite fit some of my old vintage instruments, so it was either put up with ill-fitting commercial cases or just build my own. I figured as long as I was going to do it, I might as well do it right and go for the best quality build I could think of.

My building custom cases wasn't cheap though, as the higher-quality bare materials cost more. Of course I wasn't running a factory production line so I didn't have the advantage of buying in bulk, but even for large operations building tons of items, they still have to pay more for better grade materials. Anyway, nice cases aren't one of my current requirements nowadays, but they were interesting/useful at the time.

Back to the topic, even though nowadays I don't want/need a $750 case (or even a $750 mandolin) , I think it's kinda neat that for those who wish to, it's possible to get both instrument and case built by the same outfit. At least one would surmise that there wouldn't be any issues with improper materials/fit etc.

[Jeff Mando]

From my experience working at a vintage/used guitar shop, I've seen plenty of homemade/handmade guitar cases. Most were crude, some were nicely done. BUT ALL, without exception, were way too heavy and "overbuilt" IMHO. "Marine" plywood comes to mind..... There is a fine line that must be walked between having enough protection and weight.

And the Collings case seems to do this with style, as well. Compared to a Calton, the Collings is sleek. Not that the Calton is ugly, mind you. It is actually kind of cute in the same way a baby Hippo is cute. But certainly not sleek.

As Scott stated, the Collings is not a flight case. Most of us do not need a flight case. I made the "mistake" of taking a flight case to Europe, because I thought that's what the "professionals" do. It was like dragging a safe around for 9 weeks. Unless you have your own roadies, you don't want a flight case. Great protection, though.