low action versus good tone

[Jim Nollman]

My new mandolin has a terrific voicing. A few weeks ago, I asked a luthier to dress a few deeply grooved frets. He told me that it was awfully close to needing new frets. Unfortunately, I needed it for some upcoming gigs, and asked him to do the best he could with the frets, and that I'd give it back to him within 6 months to re-fret.

When he gave it back to me with new strings, I noticed that he had set the action quite low, and it played very easy. However, while the G and D strings had retained most of the original voicing, the A and E strings were now sounding tinny. Notes fingered above the fifth fret on the A and E strings had lost all their sustain.

A few days ago I raised the bridge about 1/16 of an inch by turning the two wheels. The instrument suddenly sounded louder and richer than ever before. A and E strings included. It's a great instrument and the sound was impressive.

But the action was now too high for me to play at speed, without tiring my left hand, and missing notes. So today I lowered the bridge once again, although not quite as far as before. This time, the A and E strings still sound a bit tinny, but not quite so much as before. It plays very easy.

To summarize: low action makes it easy to finger, but gives me lousy tone, especially with the trebles. Raising the action even 1/16 of an inch gives me rich loud tone but makes the instrument difficult to finger at speed. Can someone here tell me what do I need to do to get both low action as well as the great tone I only hear now with high action.

[pops1]

Is your truss rod too tight? It may have been tightened correctly, but after a few days the neck moved to the now tighter rod and created a slight back bow. My action is very low and I don't experience the problem you are having. Are there any buzzes when it is low?

[Big Joe]

A properly set up mandolin can have great volume and tone with low action. If it doesn't there is an issue with the mandolin. It might be truss rod, or nut height, or saddle issues, or bridge fit, or ??? But when properly set up you can have the best of both worlds.

[Jim Nollman]

I'd call them "almost buzzes". I mentioned the recent dressing of the lower frets, because I was wondering if the higher frets may now be standing ever so slightly proud of them. I am having the same thoughts about the truss rod. It's one of the subtler repairs I prefer to leave to my luthier. He can check it out when he puts on new frets.

[Oliver A.]

I'd call them "almost buzzes". I mentioned the recent dressing of the lower frets, because I was wondering if the higher frets may now be standing ever so slightly proud of them.

Without seeing the instrument (or hearing it, hint, hint) my guess would be that you are experiencing some slight buzzing that is causing the tone that you describe as "tinny" and is robbing some sustain. Dressing worn mandolin frets (unless they are larger than the norm) is a tricky thing with not much room for error. Personally, I much prefer to replace at least the frets that are showing wear and then dressing them to match the remaining, original frets. Again, this is just my guess from the information that you have provided. I would not give my professional opinion without examining the instrument first hand.

Assuming I'm correct, this is one reason that I never give in to customers requesting that I do a "quick" job. This kind of thing can damage a luthier's reputation. If you want it cheap or fast, then go somewhere else I tell them but remember, fast usually means halffast. I completely understand the musicians great desire not to be without their instrument for any length of time and that is why any serious musician should have a back-up instrument that is good enough to sub for awhile.

Now get off my lawn!

[Tavy]

It's possible for the strings to be close enough to the frets that there is some interference between them - just enough to rob energy from the strings, but not enough to buzz out loud. In that situation the strings can sound dead, with little sustain. Otherwise unless the break angle over the bridge is too low, there should be little or no change in tone when you raise or lower the bridge (unless you move it a lot). Which is not to say some might not get "better" sound from a higher action - especially those who want to "chop" really hard. So my guess is that the old frets aren't quite level enough for a low action, and you should have listened to your luthier and had a re-fret Tough to say for sure without actually playing it though....

[roysboy]

In my experience you can't have great tone AND low action . Any time you try to lower the actio you sacrifice a little bit of tone/sustain/" roundness ". This is something I've discovered with not only my acoustic guitars and mandolins but with every electric guitar I've ever set up . It will , to some extent , always be a trade-off.

[pops1]

In my experience you can't have great tone AND low action . Any time you try to lower the actio you sacrifice a little bit of tone/sustain/" roundness ". This is something I've discovered with not only my acoustic guitars and mandolins but with every electric guitar I've ever set up . It will , to some extent , always be a trade-off.

I disagree, it really depends on how hard you play and the instrument you are playing. I have never played with a high action, but have had players comment on how loud my little parlor guitar was. My mandolin has a very low action, can be played hard and sounds great. I recently was confronted with a bad case of MAS and just happened to get to play a couple of nice mandolins against mine, mine won big time, low action and all, MAS cured. I am definitely in the Jethro camp and not the Bill camp. Low action is much easier to play clean and fast and there should not be a trade off in sound quality. At least there is not with my mandolins. Also heavier strings can deal with a low action much easier than lighter strings and play easy because of the lower action. On guitar I never buy a set of strings, but singles and make up the set for the guitar so I have low action and good sound.

[murrmac]

The distance between the fretboard and the strings does not , by itself, have any bearing whatsoever on what the instrument sounds like.

The height of the strings off of the top of the soundboard certainly does have an effect, however. When the saddle height is raised on a tailpiece-equipped instrument, then the downward pressure on the top increases, with a consequent increase in volume/tone ... on a guitar with a pinned bridge, increasing the saddle height increases the torque on the bridge, which will also have a significant effect on tone.

Imagine a scenario where you played an instrument with really low action and you then raised the saddle height by a significant amount, making the instrument sound louder, but also much more difficult to play. If you then inserted a tapered shim under the fretboard which made the action just as low as it was previously, the instrument would still sound louder than it previously had. Obviously, a neck reset would have the same effect.

It's all about the pressure/torque on the soundboard. Admittedly, having a higher action enables the instrument to be played harder without buzzing, but that is a totally separate issue.

[Mandoplumb]

.
Imagine a scenario where you played an instrument with really low action and you then raised the saddle height by a significant amount, making the instrument sound louder, but also much more difficult to play. If you then inserted a tapered shim under the fretboard which made the action just as low as it was previously, the instrument would still sound louder than it previously had. Obviously, a neck reset would have the same effect.
It's all about the pressure/torque on the soundboard. Admittedly, having a higher action enables the instrument to be played harder without buzzing, but that is a totally separate issue.

Thus the raised fingerboard of F5 fame

[William Smith]

A properly set up mandolin can have great volume and tone with low action. If it doesn't there is an issue with the mandolin. It might be truss rod, or nut height, or saddle issues, or bridge fit, or ??? But when properly set up you can have the best of both worlds.

Yes you are correct. I set my mando up,the action is very low just off the frets and she plays great, awesome tone/volume. I have a killer mandolin. High action equals louder chop but one can't play lead that great but lower action great tone, ease of playing. If you have a quality mandolin the chop will be there too. Mandolins really come alive when properly set-up. Maybe I'm repeating what Big Joe said but its worth saying.

[Beanzy]

You could need the bridge slots shaped. If they were on a steep edge before but go to a more gradual slope when the bridge is lowered, then it could be there'll be a more gradual pressure on the string over a longer contact point. You could even have the string moving in the part of the slot before they make proper contact. One for the magnifying glass to see what it's actually looking like in both positions.

[Brian Evans]

Probably the fret dress lowered the problem frets more than the others, and now the plane of the top of the frets is off a bit. The solution is probably a second fret dress, taking down all the frets and not just the worn ones, or a partial or complete refret and fingerboard dress.

[sblock]

Refret (you're due for this), set up, then re-assess! And yes, you can have both good tone and low action on a mandolin: these are not mutually exclusive.

[Maczart]

The height of the strings off of the top of the soundboard certainly does have an effect, however. When the saddle height is raised on a tailpiece-equipped instrument, then the downward pressure on the top increases, with a consequent increase in volume/tone ...

My question to the luthiers out there is: Can a few millimeters of height at the saddle really increase the break angle enough to increase the downward pressure on the top enough to significantly increase the volume of an instrument just by itself (assuming the break angle is sufficient to start with), all other factors being equal? My intuition and and a few quick and dirty calculations would suggest the answer is no, but I stand ready to be educated. I realize this is another one of those situations where perception can play a large part in the outcome, but there it is.

[Oliver A.]

My question to the luthiers out there is: Can a few millimeters of height at the saddle really increase the break angle enough to increase the downward pressure on the top enough to significantly increase the volume of an instrument just by itself (assuming the break angle is sufficient to start with), all other factors being equal?.

Roger Siminoff did some useful measuring of string break angle vs downward pressure. His findings show that bridge height can have a significant affect on downward force. Here's a link. http://siminoff.net/string-break-angle-loads/

I don't buy the assumption of some posters that a higher bridge necessarily equals more volume though. The thickness, arch shape and stiffness of the wood will determine the optimum amount of static load on a given top and the builder takes this into account when deciding on the geometry of the instrument. Most modern builders try to achieve the optimal bridge height in conjunction with a low action. Overloading a top can impede the tops motion and rob it of volume and complexity of tone. There are no laws that say you can't have low action and great tone and volume although you may not be able to get that on every instrument out there without doing a neck reset.

[fscotte]

If the treble side foot of the bridge needed just a few more pounds of down force to make good contact, then raising It a few millimeters may have been exactly what it needed.

[Larry Simonson]

I would really like to see a graph of top deflection vs. downward pressure for a fully functional mandolin. If it non-linear in the region where most mandolins live, a small change in break angle may have important consequences, I think.

[Ivan Kelsall]

IMHO,it really depends on the instrument itself. I've played a few top quality instruments,some with low actions that really lacked volume. There have been lots of posts on here by new players complaining of low volume,most of those raised their actions just a fraction & things improved. Going back around 5 years or so,i took my Weber mandolin to my local luthier & asked him to adjust the truss rod. I wanted to bring the action down by a tiny amount & the bridge had bottomed out. There was barely a 1/4 turn it it !. However, a few days later,i noticed a huge increase in volume - why ? - i haven't a clue. I posted this on the Cafe & one other member in Ca.had done the same thing to his Weber & got the same result.
I'm no luthier,but IMO,on any mandolin,i'd lower the strings as low as possible but so that it's still playable,then i'd raise the action to where i get the volume & tone that i wanted. On some mandolins the action could still be quite low,on others it might be a tad on the high side - that's when you need to find a compromise.
What happened to my Weber when the truss rod adjustment was done,i can't explain - but a 1/4 turn making such a huge difference ???. Another X-Files job,
Ivan

[pops1]

I believe Ivan when you lowered your truss rod your mandolin came into a better intonation and that is critical to power, resonance and a better sound. Changing a truss rod, raising or lowering a bridge requires a slight intonation adjustment and when it' in the mandolin really wakes up. IMHO.

[Lord of the Badgers]

I have two davidson f-holed mandolins. Both have very similar action now (I made sure of it).

The A5 is a LOT louder and more rounded sounding than the F5, which is more "hi fi" in sound.
At the moment, I'm preferring the A5. But then I'm not comparing it to a Gil/Dude/Loar whatever so what would I know

Here's the F5 in the hands of its rather more talented previous owner - and the action was lower then!
I still don't really know how he gets the tone out of it ha ha...

[Johnny60]

Love that tune, Rob - what's the band called?

[Lord of the Badgers]

It's not a band as such more a collection of the younger element of UK bluegrass influenced folkies.
The tunes on an album by Rex Preston (mandolin) and Miranda Sykes (bass). Miranda plays with Show of Hands. Lovely lady. The tune, sans fiddle and dobro is on "Sing a full song". I prefer their latest. The fiddle player is a carrivick sister (they are in a band called Cardboard Fox). Talented bunch .
Rex is a phenomal player in my book

[Tavy]

It's not a band as such more a collection of the younger element of UK bluegrass influenced folkies.
The tunes on an album by Rex Preston (mandolin) and Miranda Sykes (bass). Miranda plays with Show of Hands. Lovely lady. The tune, sans fiddle and dobro is on "Sing a full song". I prefer their latest. The fiddle player is a carrivick sister (they are in a band called Cardboard Fox). Talented bunch .
Rex is a phenomal player in my book

+1, Have seen both the Carriick's and Rex and Miranda as separate duos and they're all top notch players.

[Lord of the Badgers]

They don't get that many mentions here but we have some great musicians hereabouts