low action versus good tone

[Flame Maple]

Very nice Rob.

[Ivan Kelsall]

That's Charlotte Carrivick on fiddle - as lovely to look at as she is to listen to. There's quite a bit of info.etc. re. The Carrivick Sisters on the I/net,
Ivan

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I'm obsessed with the action/volume/playability spectrum. I've found when playing by myself I can have lower action and get enough volume to be happy. However, when in a jam session, the mandolins wont cut. So it takes a while to optimize the action on a new mandolin to get a little more volume (really so I can just play a little harder without buzzing) but keep the playability. I am always shocked by how small a change is needed in the bridge hieght to impact both sound and playability. Ussually I find that large changes on bridge height, up or down, can really change the tone of the mandolin, not just volume level. I've had this same experience on many mandolins, Kimble, Daley, Randy Wood,Heiden, Collings...

[Willie Poole]

I am not saying that it does or doesn`t but IF more down pressure on the bridge makes a mandolin louder then why hasn`t someone invented/made an adjustable tail piece to allow more down pressure on the bridge much like the tailpiece on a banjo? I know when John Duffey built his first "duck" mandolin he angled the neck at slightly more degrees than his F-12 had, I think he told me 4 degrees but can`t be sure about that amount, anyway it had a real high bridge on it...I also have one custom made mandolin that has a high bridge on it and it is the quietest mandolin that I own, that neck is angled more also and the strings are low on the frets but don`t buzz....

I wish I had an answer to the OP`s question, which seems to have gotten off track on here...

I`ll keep reading, maybe I`ll hear and answer that makes "perfect"sense...

Willie

[sblock]

I am not saying that it does or doesn't but IF more down pressure on the bridge makes a mandolin louder then why hasn`t someone invented/made an adjustable tail piece to allow more down pressure on the bridge much like the tailpiece on a banjo? Willie

The answer is that more down pressure on the bridge does not necessarily make the mandolin louder. Consider what happens at the two extremes: (1) If there is no downward pressure at all, the tiny motions of the bridge cannot couple with the mandolin's top and drive it into vibration, so the string motions will not be propagated to the body of the instrument. (2) If there is excessive downpressure, the motions of the bridge will be damped by strong coupling to the tailpiece. Also, too much pre-stress on the top can deflect it into a region where it becomes less elastic, leading to both lower amplitude vibration and poorer sound propagation. (Furthermore, too much downward stress can lead to top sinkage or breakage!)

So, both extremes lead to undesirable sonic characteristics. By this argument, the optimum amount of downward pressure therefore lies somewhere in between! In practice, you need a few tens of pounds (say, 35-65 lbs) of pressure to pre-stress the top, which corresponds to break angle at the bridge of ~12-18 degrees or thereabouts. But there is room for maneuver, here.

The high tension of mandolin strings poses a problem for any tailpiece that tries to exert additional downward pressure. Most mandolin tailpieces are carefully aligned with the strings, and designed to apply NO sideways (i.e., perpendicular to the string direction) deflections to these. Any tailpieces that generate such sideways forces produce a rotational moment on their moorings on the side ribs at the base of the instrument, trying to pry these. Over time, these torques can destroy the structural integrity of the mandolin. A banjo, by contrast, has (1) much lower string tension, and (2) a much thicker wooden rim (not ribs), usually 3/4" thick maple!

On a mandolin, the downward pressure exerted by the bridge, which is determined entirely by the overall string tension and by the string break angle, is usually set by fixing the pitch of the neck with respect to the body (typically, 5-6 degrees on an F5 or A5 model).

[fscotte]

Yeah you'd pull something loose back there by using an angled tailpiece.

[Lord of the Badgers]

That's Charlotte Carrivick on fiddle

well it is listed on the credits, including Rex, who you'd not heard of when I mentioned him ;-)

Published on Apr 30, 2012
Garry Harrison's old time tune performed by:
Mike Witcher - Dobro
Grant Gordy - Guitar
Miranda Sykes - Bass
Rex Preston - Mandolin
Laura Carrivick - Fiddle

Filmed by John Breese
Category
Music
License
Standard YouTube License

[Ivan Kelsall]

It looks as though the I/net info i looked at was a tad 'ambiguous'. It mentioned Charlotte playing fiddle without mentioning Laura. So ''a Rose by any other name'' ! - she's still a lovely looking girl. - " In February 2012 Charlotte was awarded first place in the FOAOTMAD Old-Time Banjo and Old-Time Fiddle contests..... " You've mentioned Rex Preston to me before Rob,
Ivan

[Tom Haywood]

Can someone here tell me what do I need to do to get both low action as well as the great tone I only hear now with high action.

I think your luthier demonstrated with the quite low action that he did an excellent job with the fret repair and leveling and the subsequent setup.

At this point, I suggest that you measure the G and E string heights at the twelfth fret to see what the very low action measurement is. Then loosen the strings and raise the bridge saddle a good bit. Re-tune, measure, then begin lowering the saddle a bit at a time under tension until you find a place that feels right to you. Re-tune and measure each time you lower the saddle. Play it for a while before lowering further. Final height for G and E strings should be about the same difference as it is now.

In the process of lowing the saddle, you should hear changes in the volume and tone. The goal is to find the height that produces the right balance between how that particular mandolin plays for you and it's best volume and tone. Try to get it right the first time unless you you have a few spare E strings.