What's the difference between a mode and a scale???

[indie rock]

What is the difference between a mode and a scale??

Isn't C major scale and C Ionian mode same??

A song written in C major will be same as the song written in C Ionian mode??

Thanks

[Bertram Henze]

exactly.

[John Kelly]

It's an interesting question. The major scale, or diatonic scale as it is also called, is built up of a series of tonal intervals. If we take the C major you mention, the notes are C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C and the tonal intervals separating each of the notes in terms of whole tones (W) and half tones (H) are: W W H W W W H. If you have a piano handy (or diagram of a piano keyboard) look at how the white keys are separated by groups of black keys in twos and threes repeating up the keyboard. C is always to the left of two black keys, and between F and G there is no black key, then a pattern of three black keys, then between B and C no black key, creating the two and three pattern all the way up. Any major scale must have the tonal intervals present I mentioned and you'll see that for the scale of C major the two half tones correspond exactly with the places where there are no black keys between E and F and between B and C, allowing us to play C major on piano on white keys only. All the other keys have sharps or flats and they are inserted to enable the Whole and Half tone pattern of the major scale to be followed. Looking at our keyboard again, if we play the key of D major, we need to play the notes D, E, F#, G, A, B, C# D. The two sharps are there to preserve the WWHWWWH intervals.

Modes are based, as you say, on the major scale and use the notes of that scale. The point about a mode is that it begins on a different note of the scale depending on the mode chosen. C Ionian begins on the C (root) note, so is exactly the same series of notes as C major. Dorian mode begins on the second note of the major scale - in C this would be D, and the mode is then D Dorian. The other modes, in order of starting note, are Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. Because you start and end the mode on a note which is not the root note, this changes the Wholetone and Halftone pattern, and this is why a tune in a mode other than Ionian sounds different from a tune played in the Major scale. D Dorian has intervals of WHWWWHW! A Aeolian (the minor scale of C Major starting on the A or 6th note of the scale), has intervals of WHWWHWW.

Hope this has not muddied the waters even more for you, but once you have this idea of the tonal interval patterns you will see the bigger pattern of scale and mode creation.

[indie rock]

Hi John Thanks for your reply.
Whatever you've explained doesn't answer my question.

After reading a lot about modes, I feel all modes are basically scales or scales are modes( I might me wrong, please correct me). Whether we call it a mode or a scale it is basically a permutation and combinations of various notes. This permutation and combination follows a pattern of intervals.

If we have

(W W H W W W H) it is Ionian mode or we call it a Major scale
(W H W W W H W) Dorian mode
(H W W W H W W) Phrygian mode
(W W W H W W H) Lydian mode
(W W H W W H W) Mixolydian mode
(W H W W H W W) Aeolian mode or we call it a minor scale
(H W W H W W W) Locrian mode

If we take any major scale, we can derive all 7 modes from it. The whole idea is all about the intervals.

Now for example :-

C major scale, all the 7 modes derived from it will share same notes but the intervals will be different.

And now if I pick a Phrygian mode of C major scale ( I don't know if this is the correct way to say) and another Phrygian mode from the D major scale. Both of them will have the same interval pattern (H W W W H W W) but will have different notes.

Now my question is, the term scales and modes are used by theorist to confuse us, or it really makes sense.

Are songs written in modes?? or scales?? I've heard people saying this song is in c major scale, but do they say its in C ionian mode something like that????

[Beanzy]

In western music there are lots more scales than those.
Chromatic, Whole Tone, Whole-half Diminished, Half-whole diminished, Blues, mixo-blues, Major & minor pentatonics, Melodic minor, Harmonic minor. A scale is merely a formula for defining your ascent or descent through a sequence of notes. (Reduced to 12 for most of us)

[DavidKOS]

In western music there are lots more scales than those.
Chromatic, Whole Tone, Whole-half Diminished, Half-whole diminished, Blues, mixo-blues, Major & minor pentatonics, Melodic minor, Harmonic minor. A scale is merely a formula for defining your ascent or descent through a sequence of notes. (Reduced to 12 for most of us)

And each of those scales can further generate modes by making different scale degrees the new tonic.

[mikeonthemandolin]

Same thing. A mode is a type of scale.

[indie rock]

Guys check this out !!!

John Mclaughlin talks about modes and improvisations. It's a pretty old video, may be most of you must have seen it.
Quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmIrCwYBCPs

[DavidKOS]

Guys check this out !!!

John Mclaughlin talks about modes and improvisations. It's a pretty old video, may be most of you must have seen it.
Quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmIrCwYBCPs

In his book on the Mahavishnu Orchestra from the 70's, one page is devoted to scales and modes derived from them, including harmonizing that scale with chords.

[s1m0n]

Same thing. A mode is a type of scale.

But not all scales are modes. Modes are a subset of scales.

[indie rock]

Hi David! are you talking about this book "Power, Passion & Beauty: The Story of the Legendary Mahavishnu Orchestra"??

[ombudsman]

A song written in C major will be same as the song written in C Ionian mode??

No. Saying a composition is in a mode is a special case - it doesn't have a single exact meaning but it implies that in some way, the specific mode will be used throughout (or at least in most of the tune) in a way that you can either hear it as a scale or as the source of the chords.

On the other hand, a song in C major is normally expected to change at least to other diatonic chords in that tonality so that there isn't a single scale sound to the piece . Even though you may well be able to play a single scale over all the chords, for this type of tune at least some of the melody is going to outline the chord changes in a way that suggests that other scales (even if they are all diatonic in the same key) have taken over while those other chords are sounding.

You'll get different answers to questions like these, but in the jazz world, modes are commonly accepted as being scales, and any scale may be broken down into its modes in order to hear their individual flavors and plumb them for melodic ideas. In other kinds of music, some players consider modes and scales to be different things, or only certain scales to have modes.

Also in jazz, any mode can also be a tonality for a piece used interchangeably with the rather obsolete concept of "key", whereas in other styles you'll have people say things like "but that's not a key". Wherever you stand on that, clearly in American folk/popular music and everything related to it, the mixolydian tonality can be the basis of a tune, and non diatonic progressions (especially parallely mixo, aeolian/natural minor, and dorian) are widely accepted as normal, as in blues.

[ombudsman]

But not all scales are modes. Modes are a subset of scales.

I kind of agree, but on the other hand there are few if any practical exceptions to that in the music that most people listen to.

When I think of a scale that defies being looked at or used as a mode, the whole tone scale comes to mind. And really, not that much else.

I like whole tone scales, they turn up sometimes, maybe more in my musical tastes than someone elses. But they're not ubiquitous music theory like major/minor, 7th chords, parallel minor concepts, and the basic greek modes.

[foldedpath]

When I think of a scale that defies being looked at or used as a mode, the whole tone scale comes to mind. And really, not that much else.

I like whole tone scales, they turn up sometimes, maybe more in my musical tastes than someone elses. But they're not ubiquitous music theory like major/minor, 7th chords, parallel minor concepts, and the basic greek modes.

There are a fair number of tunes in Irish traditional music that are hexatonic melodies, or at least "optionally hexatonic" like Cooley's Reel or Sligo Maid if the setting you play doesn't include a C#. There are a few Pentatonic tunes too, like Seanamhac Tube Station. So that's one place it's not unusual to run into them.

[ombudsman]

There are a fair number of tunes in Irish traditional music that are hexatonic melodies, or at least "optionally hexatonic" like Cooley's Reel or Sligo Maid if the setting you play doesn't include a C#. There are a few Pentatonic tunes too, like Seanamhac Tube Station. So that's one place it's not unusual to run into them.

I'm not familiar with those but just listened to Cooley's Reel. You're referring to something else altogether, modal with notes that are unused and so they have less than the typical 7.

The whole tone scale happens to have six notes but it is literally just whole steps all the way up, so the reason I say it defies modality is that there are really only two whole tone scales because each one is the set of half the available notes. You could of course play through the modes, but they would all sound the same because there is no structural difference, it defeats the purpose of looking at them that way.

It's similar to how you could say that there are only 3 diminished 7th chords, because the combination of two special qualities - they are symmetrical and don't favor any one note as an obvious root.

[Bertram Henze]

I'm not familiar with those but just listened to Cooley's Reel. You're referring to something else altogether, modal with notes that are unused and so they have less than the typical 7.

Missing notes are a typical feature of many Irish tunes, and they are what makes those tunes often harmonically ambiguous, just to puzzle chord accompanists. Such ambiguities, however, only leave a choice between two different Greek modes (e.g. Dorian vs Aeolian), nothing from the outside. Many of the instruments involved are limited to diatonic tuning, after all.

[DavidKOS]

Hi David! are you talking about this book "Power, Passion & Beauty: The Story of the Legendary Mahavishnu Orchestra"??

No, it's the score book, with charts to several albums of material.

[journeybear]

"Misirlou" is a well-known example of a song in Phrygian mode.

Isn't C major scale and C Ionian mode [the] same??

I believe so. Perhaps it is more accurate to sy the are congruent. That is, they use the same notes in the same order. Which would make them the same, to my mind.

[August Watters]

Now my question is, the term scales and modes are used by theorist to confuse us, or it really makes sense.

No, believe me, the theorists are on our side! The whole point about talking about this stuff is to find vocabulary that describes verbally what we all hear, as simply as possible.

In his book on the Mahavishnu Orchestra from the 70's, one page is devoted to scales and modes derived from them, including harmonizing that scale with chords.

I think the way David's using the terms "mode" and "scale" here are pretty standard -- a "mode" is derived from a scale by choosing a different starting point. So in my Ear Training 3 class (that's where we spend a semester on modal music) I first present modes of the major scale pretty much as has been done in this thread (see post #4), because it's easy to hear, for example, that if you play a C major scale, but start and end on D, you're playing D dorian. But although that approach is good for understanding how modes are built, it doesn't go very far toward thinking how to use them. As some people have pointed out, it's generally not a very practical idea to be thinking D dorian when you're playing in C major.

So we need to distinguish between music that is derived from the standard major-minor tonal system (which is most of our music), and modal music (which usually begins with a mode of the major scale as "home"). Someone gave a good example in another thread on a Rolling Stones' tune (here) that was in mixolydian. So thinking in E mixolydian is a pretty good idea as a starting point for this tune. (Not to split hairs, but I wouldn't call E mixolydian a "mode" in this case because here it's not being derived from A ionian; it's just the basic "home" sound of the tune. In fact the notion that mixolydian is a "mode" of ionian is a fairly recent development, historically speaking. As far a we know, Mixolydian was its own thing for probably a few millennia before anyone thought to describe it in terms of ionian.)

So how to think about modes in a way that better describes the way we use them? Well, that's what Ear Training 3 is all about, so it's a big topic, but let me suggest practicing them this way, from bright to dark, always starting on the same note:
lydian (C D E F# G A B C)
ionian (C D E F G A B C)
mixolydian (C D E F G A Bb C)
dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C)
aeolian (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C)
phyrgian (C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C)
locrian (C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C)

Post #4 listed the modes derived from their relative ionian. I have now listed them according to their parallel ionian (in other words, starting from the same note: C lydian is parallel to C ionian). Notice that there's only one note difference between each mode and the next. Once you get that, you can start substituting parallel modes by ear. Tired of the way E mixolydian sounds on the Stones tune? Try E dorian or E aeolian and see what it does for you!

[Bertram Henze]

No, believe me, the theorists are on our side! The whole point about talking about this stuff is to find vocabulary that describes verbally what we all hear, as simply as possible.

The central problem of the terminology is that it is polluted with shorthand-codes optimized for efficiency in everyday standard applications on standard instruments, thereby sacrificing consistent structure and needing over-complicated handling of exceptions. Two Examples:
- the names of the notes in an octave are optimized for the C Ionian scale, deviations from that are handled with "accidentals" (in other words, it's your fault if you don't stick with the one legal scale)
- the accidental notation is asymmetric for no apparent reason: there's the # symbol for sharp, but there is no symbol for flat, instead there's a letter b , which, dependent on context, can be mixed up with the note name B (happened in this very thread).

It is optimized for talking, not for thinking

[DavidKOS]

"Misirlou" is a well-known example of a song in Phrygian mode.
.

Well not exactly. "Misirlou" is in one of those Middle eastern modes that has an augmented 2nd:

E F G# A B C D (and D#) E.

Phrygian mode is E F G A B C D. Hijaz is E F G# A B C D E. (Arab-Turkish-Greek mode) also the scale for "Hava Nagila", etc.

The 1/2 step 2nd degree of the scale is the common tone.

Now, oddly, Klezmer musicians often call this "Freygish" which does reference Phrygian.

[indie rock]

Hi August, Thanks for your reply

Like you said

Mixolydian was its own thing for probably a few millennia before anyone thought to describe it in terms of ionian.

Why just Mixolydian ? even other modes are same. I feel Ionian mode is just used as a reference to derive other modes.
Its a way to connect all the modes( I may be wrong).
Certain notes if raised or lowered from an ionian mode, creates a new mode.

lydian (C D E F# G A B C)
ionian (C D E F G A B C)
mixolydian (C D E F G A Bb C)
dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C)
aeolian (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C)
phyrgian (C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C)
locrian (C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C)

Modes can be derived from their relative ionian and now you've shown the parallel ionian, I understood all this.
What is the practical application of all this???Is it just to understand the modes???

I am new to music theory and want to learn further. After modes what is next thing I should study? or there's still more on modes

Thanks

[mrmando]

Same thing. A mode is a type of scale.

Nope. All modes are scales, but not all scales are modes.

[indie rock]

How??

[ombudsman]

What is the practical application of all this???Is it just to understand the modes???

the main reasons are
1) it helps you see the relationship between diatonic chords in a key and how the same set of notes can produce very different sounding and functionally different chords, and

2) so you can recognize the distinct sound of each of those modes for when they are used either as their own tonality (in what may or may not be called a modal composition), or when they are used for melody writing or improvisation over a set of chords. And that's a good, relatively simple pathway into to the complex subject of relating scales to groups of chords or whole compositions.