Bluegrass: The new Americana!

[Timbofood]

I think the point which was being made by Fretbear and Willie was not so much that the newer "take" has moved on from its roots in some ways and it's just, "not the same". The guys in my band who write, have different styles in writing, one is very traditional formatted, old school style that Bill or Ralph would find right at home with. The other is more "Story Song " Bill Monroe, vintage Merle Haggard, Lefty Frizzell with a John Prine back. All of which we play in our own traditional style. The music is a growing thing to be sure but, a little care will keep the roots strong.

[Jeff Mando]

I'm American, grew up in Kentucky, have been a fan of Bluegrass, definitely a fan of Bill Monroe. The other day I saw a YouTube for a bluegrass band doing "RocketMan" and I thought, hmm, that might be interesting.

It was not interesting. In fact, it sounded exactly like every other bluegrass song I ever heard. Bluegrass is boring because it all sounds the same.

Knew a banjo player in a Bluegrass band thirty years ago. In a festival, they used to fight over which band would go first, because, since there are only a few Bluegrass songs and they all sound the same, by the time the second or third band reached the stage the crowd (of Kentucky bluegrass fans) would have become bored.

I'll take Bach over Bluegrass any day.

You had me up until Bach..........

[jaycat]

. . . Promoters shouldn't try to hornswoggle audiences by listing "bluegrass" that they don't book . . .

Just by way of comparison, the last Newport Jazz Festival I attended featured Al Green and B.B. King. Was the festival trying to 'hornswoggle' folks? I'd say not hardly, those were the big draws. You could still wander over to the small tent to see the Ron Carter trio.

I'm not a BG festival expert but this seems to be the trend nowadays, it's hard to keep a festival 'pure' and draw a big enough crowd to make it work.

[onassis]

Exactly. Unless it's an old, established hardcore BG festival. Most festivals are just looking for the buzzword that will draw the most interest. These days, for acoustic music, that word is "bluegrass". Very funny, considering that none of these borderline acts would ever market themselves as bluegrass.

[mandopops]

To jaycats point, as a longtime Blues/Jazz fan, I don't see much of a barrier between the styles, I don't think B.B. would be out of place at a Jazz fest. In fact, I believe he belongs there. As for Al Green, if he was doing a Gospel set, I think it would be a natural fit. Mahalia was at Newport.
Although I am not a Bluegrass aficionado, I understand why those who are, would want & expect to be at least a couple hardcore trad Bluegrass bands at a "Bluegrass" Fest. Although it seldom happens, I want & expect at least one Trad New Orleans (Dixieland) style band at every "Jazz" fest. As well as many other (Swing,Bebop,Big Band,Gypsy, Blues,Free etc) styles represented.
I guess it is sometimes about the draw & money, but also a fest can present a spectrum of the Music for the attendees. A sampler. I like that. I know the danger is it can go too far afield.
Joe B

[crisscross]

I don't see much of a barrier between the styles, I don't think B.B. would be out of place at a Jazz fest.

"Jazz" to me is a more generic term than "Bluegrass".
New Orleans Jazz for example is one style under the larger umbrella term "Jazz".
Bluegrass is one style under the larger umbrella term "Folk music".

I can understand that it irks BG fans, when they visit a BG festival and have to listen to a folk-rock act.
I can also understand that fans of TradJazz get annoyed, when, at a Dixieland festival, they have to put up with a Bebop act.

[Nick Gellie]

DataNick, times are a changing as the new Generation Y and millenials are coming to the fore in bluegrass and in general folk music. We have a local bluegrass and old time festival in my home town in NE Victoria which along with other like festivals is attracting some great new young talent equivalent to the Chris Thiles and Sarah Jarosch. We even had an Indian bluegrass band made up of mainly Australians - first class act.

Because my taste in music has been and is eclectic I welcome the hipsters joining bluegrass festivals. They are the future of folk and bluegrass music. The have great technical and improvisational skills and just about play anything that is being played in a jam session.

My 33-year old son has started playing the fiddle again after a 15-year break. I hope to jam with him one day playing some old bluegrass standards. I enjoy the younger generations moving in on well established bluegrass turf. It is fun and exciting to see what bands might come about.

We are hosting ten musicians at our house in Stanley for the Kelly Country Pick this August. I look forward to meeting some of the best bluegrass and old-time musicians both young and old. It should be a good show.

[cbakewell]

This whole thread reminds me of the heated debates I have heard in the UK over what exactly qualifies as 'folk music'.

I usually find myself agreeing with three or four contradictory arguments, and probably would do here if I had a dog in the fight.

[AlanN]

Most of the festivals are not drawing crowds like they did in past years....

Sad truth. In just the last few years, the Bass Mtn/Lil John's Festival of 38 years is a shell of what it was. Was always twice/year. He knocked out the Labor Day one, likely due to losing $$. Way fewer national acts, for likely the same reason. And hence, fewer attendees, fewer campers, less jamming. Very noticeable.

[Jim Hudson]

Allen always seems to neatly organize the thoughts of the thread so well! Great discussion.
I live in Austin and have been attending the same festival for many many years, Old Settlers Music Festival. It was initially called O.S. Bluegrass F. and the organizers were true bluegrass fans and booked pretty straight up bluegrass acts. The festival has changed hands a couple of times and the name was changed years ago to attract a more diverse audience (as Allen suggested) and broaden the field of acts they hired. I've noticed and been a little surprised that the young festival "hipsters" love Del McCoury as much as they love ... say Old Crow Medicine Show. Good music transcends ... yada yada. Fortunately the RV/camping/jamming scene at this festival has remained very strong. On a given night you will see lots of young kids wailing away at 3 am around a campfire playing a great mix of bluegrass, folk, Americana, jazz, etc. I agree with Nick that the bluegrass label is far more widely appealing these days than even a few years ago and I think, far the most part, this is a good thing even if such labelling is being applied to music that bluegrass traditionalists would squawk about. As a player, I want the "parking lot picking" culture to be active and diverse.

[doc holiday]

"I believe Kimber comes from a bluegrass playing family as well" (J.T. Waldron, post #46) Kimber Ludiker is a Grand National Old Time Fiddle Champion and a 5th generation fiddler. There are numerous fiddlers that didn't come from a Bluegrass background. You can count the great Kenny Baker in that group. There is a huge fiddle culture all across the USA and Canada that turns out many tremendous talents, & we can count Sam Bush in that group too.

[Willie Poole]

As I have said on here many time, You can play what you like and enjoy but just don`t call this new stuff
"Bluegrass", If you can`t tell the difference between bluegrass and what is being played today you must be less than 35 years old...The money hungry promoters killed Country music and they will do the same with bluegrass...

Compare what you are hearing today with those videos that DataNick has posted on one of the other threads and you will see a huge difference...

Thats my story and I`m sticking to it....

Willie

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Willie - "The money hungry promoters killed Country music and they will do the same with bluegrass...". Willie - I understand the gist of what you're saying,but while the Bluegrass ''Festivals'' might get watered down with other styles of 'acoustic music',it won't kill Bluegrass as a music form off.

It's maybe hard to swallow for us Bluegrass die-hards,but as i said in an earlier post in this thread,for many folk,Bluegrass simply isn't what they like !.It's as simple as that. Attendees at Bluegrass festivals might vary area to area in the US. In more rural areas where 'roots' music is maybe more popular anyway,a Bluegrass festival might find the audience to be (say) 70% true Bluegrass lovers,with 30% made up of lovers of other music or folks simply there to 'find out' what's going on. In other areas it might be the other way around. 'Whatever' - the folks who organise these festivals have to make money to pay all the bands, & if that means having 'popular' non-Bluegrass bands such as ''The Old Crow Medicine Show'' (for example), to attract larger crowds, that's how it's got to be. Personally,as long as the music is good,i think that even as a 100% 'Bluegrasser',i find it's nice to hear something different for a change. Non-stop,all day, solid Bluegrass would tire even my ears out,so some nice,relaxed Old Timey frailing banjo & fiddle tunes would go down very well,either that or another laid back style of music - as long as it's an ''associated''
music. I think that 'well judged' diversity can be a big plus point in attracting folk to festivals,& if it brings the $ in to keep the festival going,then that's how it's got to be,as long as the 'core' music,Bluegrass,is still well represented.

I know that at our UK Bluegrass festivals,not all bands / artists are 'Bluegrass' musicians. Nevertheless,the festivals are still going strong,& as long as the 'core' music is Bluegrass,they'll very likely continue to do so,
Ivan

[crisscross]

Just one stupid question: is this Bluegrass?
Or just Americana?

[Beanzy]

It's very Country. Quite reminiscent of a lot of Nancy Griffith tunes & arrangements

[Mandoplumb]

Just one stupid question: is this Bluegrass?
Or just Americana?

In my opinion that is acoustic country and very good music. Country today is just commercial music and just so much trash as I see it. This video would be closer to bluegrass than today's country be cause there is good musicians on acoustic instruments playing clean breaks and backup and good tight, close, harmony that is featured as harmony instead of a " star" with backup singers so far back you can barely hear them. I don't think it pushes the beat like real bluegrass is why I called it real country but I think you can tell I liked it and if it was in the line up at a BG festival that I attended I would not be upset.

[Mandobart]

.... Personally,as long as the music is good,i think that even as a 100% 'Bluegrasser', I find it's nice to hear something different for a change. Non-stop,all day, solid Bluegrass would tire even my ears out,so some nice,relaxed Old Timey frailing banjo & fiddle tunes would go down very well,either that or another laid back style of music - as long as it's an ''associated'' music. I think that 'well judged' diversity can be a big plus point in attracting folk to festivals,& if it brings the $ in to keep the festival going,then that's how it's got to be, as long as the 'core' music, Bluegrass, is still well represented.

Totally agree. I like many musical genres, but find I reach saturation in about two hours if the focus of a show or festival is too narrow. Blues festivals, for example, that feature only acts doing electric 12 bar tunes in E are monotonous for me. Throw in some zydeco, acoustic slide, etc. and it adds flavor and variety. Same thing for Gypsy Jazz - you need to add swing tunes and standards. Hawaiian Slack key, which I dearly love, can all start to sound the same as well. So it goes with bluegrass. If everybody at a festival did just the great old classics in the Monroe style very few attendees could enjoy an entire weekend. Throw in some Cajun tunes, Old Time, newgrass, altgrass, etc.

[Mark Miller]

For an illustration of what the OP is talking about, take a look at the lineup for the TV show "Bluegrass Underground". I think it's put out by Tennessee PBS. Few of the acts are bluegrass. Many are great anyway!

I don't really care what people call it. I love real old-school stuff the best but to my mind that includes a lot of pre-bluegrass stuff as well.

[Mark Miller]

By the way, for a great example of a band that still plays and sings it the old way, check out Dry Branch Fire Squad. Recently saw them in Chicago and they are real traditionalists, and fantastic both instrumentally and with the harmony singing.

[doc holiday]

Mandobart, Philosophically, I agree with you....but practically, if traditional Bluegrass is your thing and you drive for 5-15 hrs each way to a festival and pay $120 for a weekend pass to hear a genre-neutral lineup with the odd 'real' BG group...then it's not a Bluegrass festival. And, if you don't hear live bluegrass music at a Bluegrass festival....then, where do you hear it? You won't hear it at a folk or blues festival.
Some events, (like Wintergrass for example) work. The caliber of music is so high, that, I'd fly miles to see Tim O'Brien, or Joe Walsh, Grant Gordy, & Darol Anger. (Not to mention Julian Lage.) Other events however, lose the faithful BG fans base in trying to attract a bigger gate....

[DataNick]

I just picked up a DVD episode of Pete Seeger's Rainbow Quest that has 2 programs; one of the Stanley Brothers with Cousin Emmy, and the other, a Doc Watson Trio. After viewing these gems it became more apparent to me that from my perspective, by and large this art form that we call bluegrass, is a thing of the past.

Quincy Jones was asked a question recently(within the last 2 years) about the state of the music industry to which he replied: "Honey, we have no music industry. There’s 90% piracy everywhere in the world. They take everything." Quincy Jones Fortune magazine

May I say that as far as bluegrass as I understand it to be, based on the following videos below, that one could appropriately say, "we have no bluegrass industry"...just acoustic Americana-Indie-Progressive-Country hybrid music played with traditional bluegrass instrumentation!

Again, is that bad? Of course not! But from where I sit, I wouldn't call it bluegrass either, nor try to market it as such!

[Mandoplumb]

Bluegrass exists but it doesn't have a "industry". Any time you develop a music industry your music changes to the extent that it no longer is the same but now it is making some folks some money. Just look at "country" and what it has become. Few of the major"stars" of BG today really play BG but it is still being played in jam sessions in the parking lot and at local get togethers at least in my neck of the woods. I'm not trying to define BG just using Datanicks Standley brothers and Flatt and Scruggs

[Ivan Kelsall]

From crisscross - " Just one stupid question: is this Bluegrass,or just Americana ?".Well,despite the song being very 'modern' in sound,the band line up & the way the instruments are played,fulfills all the criteria for it being ''within the genre of Bluegrass music''. However,Alison Krauss & her band stopped calling themselves a Bluegrass band quite a while back. To my way of thinking,that allowed them to play any sort of acoustic music which will bring in the $'s. IMO,if you're trying to earn a living by playing & not simply boosting your 'other income' by playing,then it's not a bad thing to do & if we don't like it,we all know what to do.
It's one thing to play music simply for the enjoyment of it & for a few bits of extra cash,but to do it for 100% of your income is quite a different thing. You have to play what folks want to hear or else get yourself a ''real job''.
Our individual opinions are exactly that & nothing more. Regardless of whether we like something or not,we're wrong if we expect bands to conform to our expectations - they won't, & historically,they never did. During the ''Rock'n Roll era'',some Bluegrass bands,most notably The Osborne Bros.& Jim & Jesse,experimented with adding percussion to the bands & singing R & R 'sound alike songs to attract followers. I'm pretty sure that went down like a lead balloon with lots of Blugrass fans,but the music survived.
As with many things,in music,if something isn't working right (attendance drop off at festivals),the organisers will try something to get it back on track. It's either that,or shut the festival down completely & that way everybody looses - is that really what we want ?. Personally i don't care one bit what it was like 'in the old days' (any more),i'm ''not living in the old days'',i don't live in the past. At age 71,the past is long gone,& for the most part i'm thankful. Bluegrass as a music has changed, & will continue to do so regardless of our personal wishes. I'm thankful for the terrific bands we have going at present,bands such as Blue Highway / Special Consensus / Balsam Range & others,& the 'new sounding' bands such as 'Greensky Bluegrass' & 'The Infamous Stringdusters' (come back Jesse Cobb !!!). These bands & many others keep my Bluegrass whistle wet & long may they do so.

'Change' is part of our lives,even when it comes down to music of all genres. We can either accept it & 'join in' - that doesn't mean that you have to force yourself to like what you don't like,i personally don't like The Punch Bros. stuff,so i listen to the other bands - or, we can sideline ourselves & moan & groan over it, & that could make for a really miserable existence, & i'll opt out of that thank you very much,
Ivan

[DataNick]

The thread seems to be de-evolving into the I do or don't like the old, traditional bluegrass schtick....and that wasn't the intent or point of the OP. The point was that the label bluegrass has become so inclusive that it basically doesn't mean anything anymore, like Americana; you could get just about anything that's acoustic music with that moniker; and so it appears just the same now with Bluegrass.

I believe I know what Ivan means, but may I respectfully point out that the entire Classical music industry is living in the past, quite happily and successfully I might add...YMMV...

[DataNick]

Some young friends of mine, The Blue Js (ages 12-19) livin & lovin the "Old Days" ...those silly youngsters; don't they know that nobody will come see them at the festivals they're playing and getting booked at ....and they definitely call what they do Bluegrass