What is the Correct way to practice scales????

[indie rock]

To have a better understanding and control over scales (major/minor), Do I need to practice them in 3 octaves?? and in all positions?? how should I be practicing??

Thanks

[JeffD]

Your going to love this: it depends.

First of all. As long as you are practicing them its good. It would be even better if you sang or hummed along.

I learned from a clarinet teacher many years ago. Do every scale, one octave, followed by its major arpeggio (or minor on the minor scales). Then go up one note and do the same. I have a habit of doing this. This one is great for getting the scales into your head and into your fingers.

I learned from a violin teacher play at least two octaves, and don't pause at the end of the first octave. Do this looking at the sheet music (and humming along). I don't do this one as much any more, but I still do it. This one is great for learning to read standard notation.

Here is one I do that gets me up the neck. Its fun. I got the idea from ffcp. I do this crazy thing where I play a scale in closed position starting with the index finger. For this I start in the middle of the neck, say the D on the G string. I go up one octave then down. Then I play the same scale in closed position starting at the same fret, but starting with my middle finger. It will not be the same frets. It will be a different ffcp pattern. Then I move on to starting at the same scale, same place, with the ring finger, and then the pinky. All the same scale, the same notes, but different frets.

You need to start this one sufficiently up the neck to have room for it.

I do this one a lot. I really enjoy it.

Now I cannot tell you which is better. Likely one is better for developing this particular skill and one is better for that one. I do it usually to limber up, and because I kind of like it. Its fun. Its something besides playing a tune that I can do on my mandolin that is fun.

Others with more pedagogical credentials will chime in with the why and wherefore.

[bigskygirl]

Just learn some tunes, you are overthinking things. Music theory is great and it helps unlock the instrument for sure but you will only really understand it when you are actually using it. Much like a profession...one goes to school or training to gain knowledge or learn a craft but only when you get out and start working with it do you finally "get it".

Get your mandolin and learn Whiskey Before Breakfast which is mostly playing around the D major scale...then do it in another octave...then do it in another key...and then another and you will see it all coming together.

Have fun and just play

[dylanferris]

While I do agree with bigskygirl, you need to play tunes to really get a practical knowledge of much of what is going on, having familiarity with scales unlocks a lot. Up until 3 years ago, I was 100% playing by ear. I had no knowledge of theory aside from what I subconsciously knew.

Then I went to music school. I was learning from a violinist who, of course, was only theory based and almost exclusively learned new pieces of music from paper. He taught me scales, both in first position and up the neck, and he taught me ways to use them for improv techniques. Now, I can't go into detail about how to utilize scales for your improv as this was 2 years of music college we're talking about.

What I'm getting at is DO NOT disregard scales. But DO NOT rely on them. Feel the music. However, there is nothing wrong with having an intellectual grasp on what you're playing and putting together in an improvised solo.

Start for sure by learning your major and minor scales in first position, starting with the lowest possible root you can play, up to the highest note in the scale you can play, then back down to the root. Here's where it gets interesting. Drop below your root as low as you can go and back up again. What I mean is, let's say you're playing a C major scale, starting on your lowest C (5th fret G string). Play from 5th fret G, all the way up to 8th fret E, or you could stop at 7th fret if you want to avoid the stretch for now. Play through your scale back down to 5th fret G, but then play 4th, 2nd, open, 2nd, 4th, 5th on the G to finish. This way you're not ignoring what is below your starting note.

Then do this with all your major and minor arpeggios, so just playing the I III V of each scale, all the way up and back down, then dip below your starting note if you can and back up finishing on the note where you began.

This should be a really good start that will familiarize your mind AND your fingers with where the notes are in each key, and where you should be playing. But don't get stuck in this land too much while playing, because remember that not all songs are in major or natural minor scales. There WILL be plenty of cases where your notes will need to change, such as a tune in mixolydian which is your major key with a flat VII.

If you need some clarification, let me know, I'm just typing this as fast as my brain can think of it!

[billhay4]

Play the notes in the scale in various orders. Every other note, 1-2-3 2-3-4, etc. Forward, backwards, pentatonic of the scale, etc.
Bill

[JeffD]

I may be wrong, and if I am let me apologize ahead of time, but for some reason (I can't find the posts) I have the impression that Indie-Rock has a lot of experience playing Indian classical mandolin music.

If that is correct, then I think playing the scales themselves is more important than perhaps it is for others, just to get that finger, ear, brain connection to the western modes and scales firmly entrenched. Those of us immersed in western music since birth can, I believe, get away with just learning lots and lots of tunes. I think we can all benefit from scales, but I enjoy playing scales - I am a geek. But many of us already have a musical intuition about this stuff since singing Do Re Me as a kid, and there is not as much work needed. Indie, I think, would really benefit from working on scales directly.

If I am wrong about this I apologize and am fully prepared to hide under my bed for the next two weeks.

[bingoccc]

A favorite of mine talks about it.

[indie rock]

Dear JeffD, no need to apologize. You all are amazing.

If I am wrong about this I apologize and am fully prepared to hide under my bed for the next two weeks.

Good one!! Instead of hiding you better spend more time with your Mandolin.


Most important thing is: To Break the Rules, You Must First Know the Rules That's how music theory is.

I love playing scales, it's like a deep forest- full of adventure and surprises, back bone for any song or improvisations.

[indie rock]

Hi Dylanferris. Thanks for your reply.

Could you please tell me what is this for??

Then do this with all your major and minor arpeggios, so just playing the I III V of each scale, all the way up and back down, then dip below your starting note if you can and back up finishing on the note where you began.

Are you talking about the triads??So for example in C major scales I'll play C E G and skip all other notes??

I will practice this for some time, then songs.

Slow and steady wins the race

If you need some clarification, let me know, I'm just typing this as fast as my brain can think of it!

Let your brain pour all the knowledge..Don't stop.....

Thanks

[indie rock]

Thanks, Awesome !!

Could you please share some similar videos if you have

[dylanferris]

indie rock,

Yes, arpeggios are your major and minor triads. You should try to play them two octaves. This helps your improv as you're not going to all the notes in a scale for a solo..however the three notes that will ALWAYS be good notes to hit are your I, III, V. They define the chord you are playing over, therefor you can never hit a wrong note playing these three. So, practice your major and minor scales, and your major, minor and diminished arpeggios (triads). But when starting to apply them to your playing, the triad notes are the best foundation. Then you'll need to explore the other notes. Depending on the song, the II, VI and VII could be flat, and playing a major scale then would not sound correct. This will take some experimenting to hear when to play these tension notes as flat, sharp or natural notes. Does this make sense?

[JeffD]

Do every scale, one octave, followed by its major arpeggio (or minor on the minor scales). Then go up one note and do the same. I have a habit of doing this. This one is great for getting the scales into your head and into your fingers..

So we would go like

C - CDEFGABC - CBAGFEDC - CEGCGEC - C# - ...

[gtani7]

To have a better understanding and control over scales (major/minor), Do I need to practice them in 3 octaves?? and in all positions?? how should I be practicing??

Thanks

That's not an easy question. One of the goals on string instruments is to have the common fret positions between chord tones on different scales programmed in yoru mind and fingers so you know what your options are (if that makes sense).

Does that sort of answer your question?

there's a few books on praciticing you might enjoy, probably your local public library has at least one: Klickstein "Musicians Way" and "Practice of Practice" by Jonathan Harnum, Dave Berkman "jazz guide to Practicing", others by David Dumais, Tom Heany

[indie rock]

Oh yes it does make sense. A world of difference.

Thanks

[indie rock]

So we would go like

C - CDEFGABC - CBAGFEDC - CEGCGEC - C# - ...

JeffD, Sorry I didn't understand.

[indie rock]

That's not an easy question. One of the goals on string instruments is to have the common fret positions between chord tones on different scales programmed in yoru mind and fingers so you know what your options are

Yeah!! got it.


I've ordered "The Complete Mandolin Method -- Beginning Mandolin (Book & CD) (Complete Method)".

[JeffD]

OK well if instead of the names of the notes we use the numbers of the notes of a scales, 1 though 8, where 8 is the same note as 1 an octave higher.

We would do 1, then pause, then 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 then pause then 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 then pause then the major arpeggio 1 3 5 8 5 3 1 and then we would start again a half step up.

[indie rock]

Interesting !

major arpeggio 1 3 5 8 5 3 1 and then we would start again a half step up.

OK this is the sequence I need to follow and then start again with a half step up. So I need to play all the 7 Arpeggios possible is a scale( Major/minor). Example C major scale - C E G , D F A, E G B, F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F. ???

I think i got it. Thanks JeffD

[AlanN]

Here is one I do that gets me up the neck. Its fun. I got the idea from ffcp. I do this crazy thing where I play a scale in closed position starting with the index finger. For this I start in the middle of the neck, say the D on the G string. I go up one octave then down. Then I play the same scale in closed position starting at the same fret, but starting with my middle finger. It will not be the same frets. It will be a different ffcp pattern. Then I move on to starting at the same scale, same place, with the ring finger, and then the pinky. All the same scale, the same notes, but different frets.

Indeed, a good thing to do. Related: Play the same note, same string, but with a different finger each time, fast. This is from Tony Rice.

[indie rock]

Indeed, a good thing to do. Related: Play the same note, same string, but with a different finger each time, fast. This is from Tony Rice.

I came across this video , I think this is what JeffD was talking about??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO8ihXU1CmQ

[JonZ]

If you want to use scales for improvisation, you should practice scales to both ingrain patterns and break out of patterns.

The FFCP exercises offered at jazzmando are one example of ingraining patterns.

You also want to have an intimate familiarity with each note of the scale. If you only practice patterns, you start to go on autopilot, and you don't really think about the individual notes.

One exercise that I think is useful comes from an instructional video by one of Steely Dan's guitarists, which I can no longer find on the internet. He would work on playing the notes of a scale with some of the frets left out. So on the mandolin, I might apply this by playing a scale absent the notes that the first finger would play. So at first I leave out my first finger, then second, etc. Then I might leave out two fingers.

After I play a scale like this, I try to create an interesting phrase using only the notes available to me without that finger (also from the instructional video). So in addition to making note locations more concrete, I expose myself to novel melodic ideas.

The are some other variations of this type of practice. For example, you can leave out a string or a tone. You can change the scale by altering a tone: b3, b7, etc. You can also take a lick that you like and transpose it through the modes of the scale. Start it at the one, then the two, then the three, etc.

Lately I have been working on the minor blues scale with the finger subtraction method, and it produces some interesting melodic results. Blues lines tend to be primarily built by going up and down among adjacent notes. When you start taking larger steps, and moving horizontally across the fretboard, it creates lines that sound unusual but still "work".

Of course, any of these variations are patterns too, and will eventually become automatic if you practice the same ones every day. So you have to keep inventing new challenges. This all goes back to "practicing what is hard". Playing any pattern day after day eventually stops being hard.

Always use a pattern you practice to create something. I try to make this a 50/50 split: play a pattern/use a pattern. You can do the same thing with FFcP: play ascending thirds/create a line that incorporates ascending thirds.

[JeffD]

I came across this video , I think this is what JeffD was talking about??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO8ihXU1CmQ

Zakly!!

I typically do not do two octaves at once. The second octave is just starting on a different finger. But I can see the advantages. Maybe I will do it that way.


The key thing to me is that I have to push through the moment when I understand what I am doing, and push on to the "jock" stuff of the exercise, the "running laps" part. I have a tendency to stop when I "get" it, and move on because I get bored so easily. I need to stick with it past that point, and do the exercise over and over for the muscle memory and stamina. I sometimes sing the notes along loudly in order to block my mind from drifting away.

[JeffD]

So I need to play all the 7 Arpeggios possible is a scale( Major/minor). Example C major scale - C E G , D F A, E G B, F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F. ???

Not sure if I understand. In the exercise as described, I would do C, C major scale up and down an octave, and then the C major arpeggio. Then move on to C#. I would not do the D F A arpeggio until I was doing the D minor scale. (D F# A for D major). One scale one arpeggio.

My reason is only to glue the arpeggio and the scale and the note together. I would think doing every triad would confuse your ear.

I hope I answered the right question.

[indie rock]

Yes you did Thanks
I have already started working on it.

[indie rock]

Thanks JonZ.

If you only practice patterns, you start to go on autopilot, and you don't really think about the individual notes.

That's true, very important to know what we are playing.

One exercise that I think is useful comes from an instructional video by one of Steely Dan's guitarists,

Could you please tell me the name of this instructional video, Is it "Lick Library - Jam with Steely Dan - Tom Quayle''???

So on the mandolin, I might apply this by playing a scale absent the notes that the first finger would play. So at first I leave out my first finger, then second, etc. Then I might leave out two fingers.

I didn't get this, are you trying to play modes??
For example in a C major scale instead of starting on a C with my index finger, I start on a D with my middle finger and then move on??? Is that what you mean?? Can you please explain this with an example if I am wrong.

After I play a scale like this, I try to create an interesting phrase using only the notes available to me without that finger (also from the instructional video). So in addition to making note locations more concrete, I expose myself to novel melodic ideas.

Yes, that's what I want, being able to move around anywhere on a fret board. I believe practice should be in such a way that it prepares us for anything that comes our way. Once the foundation is strong, rest is easy.



Thanks for sharing