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Thread: Strumming like guitar?

  1. #26
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Preconceptions can kill progress. I have been on that road many times and also likes and dislikes along with my desires can kill progress. I dislike the Ry Coder songs above, really can't stand the singing but like you said he's on stage and I'm not. Strumming didn't bother me but other playing styles on mandolin bug me but they are in the limelight and I'm not. Sometimes forging your own path means learning as much about what you don't like as it does what you like. Sadly even after realizing this I still stink but plowing ahead regardless. I think if there is something you want to do on the mandolin then you just need to do it. There will be a way but it may down a path you never thought about before. Chords, melody, combinations thereof are all possible but as mentioned doing it musically will probably mean you have to look outside preconceived ideas on how to best accomplish it. One thing I have noticed is that in certain mandolin styles of music there is some serious rigidity to how things should sound and be done and should sound. I don't mean just to play that style but guys/gals have told me this is how you have to play the mandolin, that's just the way it is. Hogwash, it has strings and you can play it any way you want if someone else likes what you sound like even better. So I think I have had a similar awakening over the years that you had JeffD. Love that post. But it makes me question what is mandolinny and who determines it? My answer is me, and yours is you, and anyone else should answer them.
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  3. #27
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bertotti View Post
    One thing I have noticed is that in certain mandolin styles of music there is some serious rigidity to how things should sound and be done and should sound. I don't mean just to play that style but guys/gals have told me this is how you have to play the mandolin, that's just the way it is. Hogwash, it has strings and you can play it any way you want if someone else likes what you sound like even better. So I think I have had a similar awakening over the years that you had JeffD. Love that post. But it makes me question what is mandolinny and who determines it? My answer is me, and yours is you, and anyone else should answer them.
    Amen, Brother. It's music, not engineering.
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    Registered User Sherry Cadenhead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Novice that I am, it had not occurred to me that guitar-type strumming with a mandolin is not an acceptable method. I've been playing with a local jam group and using different strum patterns. My friend Laurie, an accomplished mandolinist, only chops. Guess I now know why.

  6. #29
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Keep doing what works for you. No reason not to strum but for a nice sound you just have to change the chord structure or add some embellishments here and there. I have not gotten passable at that yet myself, it is a work in progress.
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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    The mandolin is about as versatile as any instrument, within the capability of its physical attributes. How versatile is the player - that is the real question. Can you figure out how to make it sound the way you want it to? Or are you willing to accept the limitations others may try to impose on you?

    People who say you can't play mandolin that way - any way other than their preconceived notion - is really saying they can't, or they don't believe you can, or they've been told they can't. Not true. Mandolin is a fine rhythm instrument. People are so used to hearing it played in bluegrass bands they think that's the only way. If not that, then that it's the best way. Not true. Perhaps for that style of music. But look how many styles of music there are. You can figure out what will work and how to do it.

    Sorry to use guitar as an example, but since the instrument is so prevalent, examples abound. People play the blues on it, and country, and rock, and flamenco, and Brazilian samba, and jazz, and plenty more - and it's the same instrument, with some variations. There is no reason you can't do the same with mandolin.

    There's a common belief that mandolin is pitched too high to provide accompaniment for vocals. Not true. Just because it sounds different from what you're used to hearing doesn't mean it doesn't work. When I'm playing a solo gig or just sitting around my place I tend to let the chords ring - just as a guitarist would - and it fills the sound just fine. I have a fairly low voice, so perhaps that fills in the part of the auditory range beyond the mandolin's capability. I think it's more important to fill in the gaps in time rather than pitch. Sam Bush does a good job with that on his "Sailing Shoes," though honestly, his approach is pretty frantic. One could do just as well at half the tempo and a quarter of the strumming by letting the chords ring. That would be much closer to Little Feat's version, too, though clearly Sam has his own interpretation. Someone mentioned Steve Earle's "Galway Girl." That's a great example of how to make strumming work.

    BTW, all this talk about someone being on stage and playing this way or that so who are you to say otherwise - please. Do you have any idea how much more is involved in getting to be on stage than being able to play an instrument? Hanging around the kitchen enjoying making music the way you like to hear it is every bit as valid as what they're doing. That ain't no part of nothin'.

    Don't let naysayers have their way. Figure out how you want to play. Don't sell yourself short by hewing to convention. Conventional wisdom isn't wise, but it sure is conventional.
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  9. #31
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Yea although I did mention someone being in the limelight I don't prescribe to that being the way it has to be either. I know a lot of great musicians who are not famous, have no desire to be famous but I believe could play circles around a lot of recorded and well-known musicians. So I agree, just because someone is famous for music doesn't mean their way is the way. We can learn from all of them though. Sometimes good and what we can try to do and sometimes what we have no desire to do, it's all learning.
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  10. #32
    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    Conventional wisdom isn't wise, but it sure is conventional.
    Ha! I love this philosophy.
    When I was in my 20's the bumper sticker on my car was "Why be normal?"
    Similar idea.

    I listened to one of Brad Laird's podcasts recently, and he challenged the listener to identify what they want to achieve with their instrument. (This was in the context of choosing an appropriate mentor.)

    I've been thinking about this for a few days, and a major one is, to be able to make the music inside my head move out to the mandolin. I'm sure the music inside each person's head is different, so why would we strive to play it the same?

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  12. #33

    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Quote Originally Posted by mobi View Post
    Is it possible to strum chords in mandolin like guitar?

    I understand mandolin is predominantly a melody instrument but can we do chord strumming somewhat guitar like (where one signs and strums chords in guitar)?

    I have seen people doing it but then the chord sounds quite different from those of guitars and I think guitar chords sound better.
    Of course, one can strum any stringed instrument - to varying degrees of success. But your observations are sound. The mndln will not replicate a guitar; gtr has much more capacity. Take for instance the field of classical and flamenco: the many types of strumming (rasqueado) incorporate various rhythmic dimensions which are fundamental to the music. I suppose you could try to emulate these with a plectrum/pick, but it won't approach the elements which are fundamental to the music - namely, rhythmic expression (see thread on "flamenco mandolin" https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...Style-Mandolin ). To equate the capacity of a mndln to gtr is like equating the hammered dulcimer to a piano.

    The mndln can be effective in a variety of idioms. But for me, it's of limited efficacy in the styles that I play (so I use other instruments). Mndln is a great ensemble instrument for coloration.

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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Some great discussion here. When I first joined our youth praise band it was to provide a transition in the adult leadership, and because they needed a bass player and I was willing. I remember the first Christmas service we played we were expecting a smaller crowd with holiday mayhem/travel and decided to go all acoustic and “in the round.” So, I brought mandolin instead of bass. I was playing some double stops, tremolo, and harmony on the first song we rehearsed, and the leader stopped us half way through the first verse and actually asked me to strum, stating, “these songs will sound great with that mandolinny strumming sound!” He didn’t come from a bluegrass background but more rock/classic rock, so Steve Earle and Levon Helm were what he was used to hearing, lol. His band, his vision, and it did sound good (though in the mix with 2 guitars and a cajone).

    So, yes, perspective matters. One of my goals is to be versatile enough to fit in with any genre/mix. With experience and practice I’m getting better at it, but still have a long ways to go. If my goal was to become the best traditional bluegrass mandolin player I can be at the expense of all other genres I may have a different opinion, but, thankfully, I’m not musically boxed in. Playing multiple instruments and having multiple voices at my disposal helps as well…

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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Here's a quick down-and-dirty recording which I hope demonstrates some of what I was talking about. This is just one type of strum I use, and not all that often. In fact, it's pretty much reserved for "Sailin' Shoes," so I was a bit surprised to see it come up as an example in the discussion. It would sound better if I had used a real microphone, but I think the point is clear. It would sound better if I'd used a real singer, too, but one tries to do the best with the resources at hand. If anyone is wondering, I'm throwing in a Bb 3011 just before the resolve. It's rock 'n' roll, after all.

    People who say the mandolin can't do this or that - can't - are off-base, in my opinion. It would be more accurate to say they haven't figured out how to do whatever is being discussed. That is, they should say, "I can't do that," not "the mandolin can't do that." Clearly the mandolin can do this; this is one take. Perhaps if that's the way they think, they should stop playing the instrument. At least stop saying such rubbish. There is so much potential within the mandolin; one just must apply oneself to drawing it out. One would serve one's purposes best by learning how the instrument sounds, and figuring out how to make it sound the way one wishes.

    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  16. #36
    Ursus Mandolinus Fretbear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    [QUOTE=fentonjames;1503150]

    Just Sam and Hoss; Sailin' Shoes - Crossroads

    I think the OP was referring more to us "Mere Mortals...."
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    As far as I can tell, chopping chords is essentially a bluegrass thing, and people rarely just strum the mandolin in that scene.

    However, outwith bluegrass, it seems to me that people quite often do it. Part of it is also to do with the closed chord nature of bluegrass mandolin chording. Personally I see no reason not to strum and I quite often do it.
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  19. #38

    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    I’m new… and I didn’t know it was wrong. So I do it a lot. And I like it

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    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Sound like a plan. Sounds like a mighty fine plan. When I was just starting out - 53 years ago - I had no clue whatsoever. Took quite a while and a roundabout route to even figure out how to tune it. I'd go into the field across the street from my house where I wouldn't bother anyone and just bang away till I could make some sense of it. There weren't any naysayers to impede my progress. There weren't any bluegrass police members around to cluck their tongues. Heck, I didn't even know about the G chop chord till someone showed me in college three years later. I think it was in my Mel Bay Mandolin Chords book - at least the similar F chord was - but it looked like too much work, and unnecessary. I was perfectly happy to play 0023 and let it ring. Still am.

    PS: The OP hasn't checked in for almost two years. I hope he/she has sorted it out by now.
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  23. #40
    Mandolin Player trodgers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Good grief. Why would the player of any stringed instrument choose to not use one of the fundamental techniques of playing a stringed instrument?
    “Like winds and sunsets, wild things were taken for granted until progress began to do away with them. Now we face the question whether a still higher ‘standard of living’ is worth its cost in things natural, wild and free.” -- Aldo Leopold

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  25. #41
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    I am not sure what "not acceptable" means. Of course I am an advocate of standard ways of doing things. That said, many have done well doing non standard things. Steve Earle strums with two finger open chords. Jez Low plays his mandolin left handed (though he is right handed) and strumming like a loud ukulele. Kenny Hall played with his finger nails, holding the mandolin vertically. And all three of them are a metric tonne more musical than I am.

    My bottom line is that guitar like strumming is an acceptable aesthetic choice, no problem. Strumming only because that is what you know how to do from playing guitar and learning mandolinny things is too hard, well yea, I am not as comfortable with that. Its not a choice if it is all you can do.

    That said, do what you want, do what you can, and I will too, and maybe we will be able to play together.
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  27. #42
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Hear here!



    And Happy Birthday, Ringo!
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

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  28. #43

    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    ...Strumming only because that is what you know how to do from playing guitar and learning mandolinny things is too hard, well yea, I am not as comfortable with that...
    Funnily, this is just such a case with one of the most iconic "mandolin" songs: Page's "Battle of Evermore." (Although, I doubt that the issue was "too hard," but rather - too busy with guitar...at any rate, he was just banging around on it and made a nice song with some primitive chops.)

    I imagine that was the case as well with many of the "soft/folk rock" songs that people like - from all the pop stars mentioned..

  29. #44
    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Funnily, this is just such a case with one of the most iconic "mandolin" songs: Page's "Battle of Evermore." (Although, I doubt that the issue was "too hard," but rather - too busy with guitar...at any rate, he was just banging around on it and made a nice song with some primitive chops.)

    I imagine that was the case as well with many of the "soft/folk rock" songs that people like - from all the pop stars mentioned..
    Another good example.
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  30. #45
    bass player gone mando
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    "Strumming like guitar" can mean different things. To me, Mike Compton strums the mandolin and I think he's fantastic. Is he "strumming like guitar"? I dunno. There's a pick in his hand and it's going up and down playing all the strings of the instrument at once. Guitar players do that too. :-)

    Seriously, interesting thread. I agree with those who point out that the mandolin is an *extremely* versatile instrument and can be played in many styles. My own style is certainly guitar-influenced as I played my share of guitar over the years. But without learning from bluegrass and Irish tunes I couldn't make it work.
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  31. #46

    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Here is a great example of mandolin strumming by a modern master.
    Not Bluegrass by any means but definitely mandolin centric.

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  33. #47

    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    My mandolin instructor is primarily bluegrass and jazz, and so far my lessons have been bluegrass tunes and techniques. Lately I've been learning non-grassy tunes and doing a lot of strumming. A song I've been working on is Train's Hey, Soul Sister. The original song has a ukelele in it and this song works great for mandolin, although there are a lot of quick chord changes. It gives you a workout on the four finger G chord for sure.

  34. #48
    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    I don't know if this qualifies as strumming like a guitar but I have found lately I will pick up my A, pick a four-finger chord then mute each note with my fingers. They don't ring out just thud a bit, not a real chop, and then practice with strumming muted rhythms. Not sure how odd that is but lately it seems like the thing to do when I have some time to do.
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    Registered User Frankdolin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    If I play a song like "Yesterday" for example, and sing, it's gonna sound pretty damn silly if I use chop chords. You do what you gotta do and what's right for the song. And I don't strum a mandolin like a guitar, I strum it like a mandolin.

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  37. #50

    Default Re: Strumming like guitar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankdolin View Post
    If I play a song like "Yesterday" for example, and sing, it's gonna sound pretty damn silly if I use chop chords. You do what you gotta do and what's right for the song. And I don't strum a mandolin like a guitar, I strum it like a mandolin.
    Yes, strumming a mandolin along with a vocal should be done in the genre of the song. Now, there are legit bluegrass groups that perform songs from a different genre and make them sound great, chops and all. But those are seasoned pros who know how to pull it off.

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