How to get that sweet tone?

[RodCH]

I'm pretty new at this. I don't play at jams or for audiences. My playing is not up to that kind of standard. I'm just playing for myself.

I used to be a classical guitarist before classical guitars got so large (or maybe I just shrunk as I got older) so that gives you some idea of what I am looking for. I want it loud enough for me to hear, and I want it sweet. Not tinny, not weak. Sweet.

I have five mandolins and a sixth is being shipped as we speak, but it is a backpack mandolin, for keeping in practice while on trips. I'm not expecting much for tone on this one. If it is playable I will be pleased.

Here is what I have, in the order acquired. . .

1) A "Portuguese style" violin scale instrument with a narrow neck and a round bowl back. With GHS Ultra-light strings. Probably built in East Germany in the 50's or 60's. There is no identification about the builder anywhere on it. Practically mint condition. The bowl is very alive acoustically. This one seems to like a fairly normal and not too thick guitar pick.

2) A cheap (think Sears & Roebuck) potato bug mandolin made by a mass producer in Czechoslovakia (which gives you some idea of the age, since this country began existing about a hundred years ago and stopped existing a decade or two ago). This thing is robustly made and I put J74's on it. Ultra light strings just don't have enough power to move the sound board. I'm not expecting much tone-wise from this instrument.

3) Another "Portuguese style" violin scale, same neck with slightly smaller round bowl back. I don't play this one as much. GHS Ultra-light strings as a kindness to the instrument. The bowl is not as big as #1 and it isn't in as good a shape.

4) Eastman MD 504. Currently strung with EFW74's. My favorite pick for this is the Dunlop Primetone 1.3mm. This instrument can be very sweet.

5) Ratliff Country Boy. This is an "A" style mandolin with "F" holes (which gives better access to higher frets than a round-hole mandolin. 15th fret at the body instead of 12th).
The strings are whatever Audey Ratliff strung it up with but they look like about j74s. So far, the best pick for this instrument seems to be the Stagg classic 0.46 mm. I generally use one of the top corners instead of the deep v corner.

The thing is, the Ratliff can sound sweet with the very thin pick, but if you use a Golden Gate or a Dawg or anything thick at all then the E string is weak and tinny and the G string is dead. This is the opposite of what I expect from my reading.

Anybody who can point me in the right direction? If it is right-hand technique, then I can readily believe it. I'm self-taught, which is to say, ignorant.

Thanks,
Rod

[G7MOF]

Sounds to me like you would do well with a mandola!!!

[RodCH]

I do think about the Mandola from time to time but the playing style is different. I came to the Mandolin essentially because I wanted to play violin but I think I have essentially waited too late to start. Tried but had to give it up. But the Mandolin and violin are both melody instruments, where the Mandola seems like it is more for chording.

[pops1]

For me the Dawg picks don't produce much volume, and I like a rounded pick. I like the BC, but the M100 Wegen is what I am using these days. I get plenty of volume from the E, but I can get more by using a pointed pick. It's warmer with the rounded one tho.

[Tobin]

I do think about the Mandola from time to time but the playing style is different. I came to the Mandolin essentially because I wanted to play violin but I think I have essentially waited too late to start. Tried but had to give it up. But the Mandolin and violin are both melody instruments, where the Mandola seems like it is more for chording.

Not true. Mandola is better at chording than mandolin in many ways, but I use mine mainly for melody work. The mandola is right in the sweet spot for double duty between chording and melody, without having to be really weak in one area.

[Marty Jacobson]

Have you tried picking further away from the bridge? I think a lot of mandolin players don't take advantage of the sweet legato tone and sustain you can get by picking at the 15-17th fret (sul tasto). It takes some practice not to get pick click, but so worth it. Grisman makes a lot of use of this technique (as well as the other side of the spectrum, picking close to the bridge or sul ponticello to get that crisp brittle tone). Listen to Mill Valley Waltz off of the original Tone Poems album to hear some pretty dramatic examples of what you can get when you shift from one to the other.

[CES]

I'm not a fan of the Dawg shaped picks, just can't get the volume I want without wailing on them. While there's likely some technique adjustments you can make (watch YouTube videos of Chris Thile, Sam Bush, Dawg, etc, and really focus on their right hand approach), strings could make a difference, too. Try to find some flat wounds or Monels (previously Sam Bush signature, not presently being manufactured). Also, FWIW, I feel like my BC ct 55 has a "darker" tone than my Wegen or Primetones.

Maybe try out the pick sampler being offered on the forum?

[LillianBelle]

I have Thomastik flatwounds on my Eastman 604 and I am not sure I'd say they actually give it a "sweet" tone, I'd call it quieter and "darker". They do, however, stay in tune extremely well and they don't rip up my fingertip calluses quite the way other strings do.

[JH Murray]

Are you looking for a clear ringing tone that isn't tinny or shrill? Then here are two options to consider- D'Andrea Proplec 346 1.5mm . You may want to put a speed bevel on it to tweak the tone. Also the Wegen TF140 which has a nice rich tone and a speed bevel.

[Austin Bob]

Check out this thread and focus on Sam's right hand. Notice how he moves from playing closer to the bridge for single notes, and then up the neck for chords.

Your right hand is the key to getting the tone you want. It's all a combination of your mandolin/strings/pick and how you attack it with your right hand. My oval hole mandolin sounds different than my F, and therefore I play them slightly differently to get the best tone.

With enough practice, it becomes automatic, but at first it's a bit of trial and error.

[UsuallyPickin]

Hmmmm ... technique, where you "play" in relation to the bridge, angle of pick as it plucks the string, gauge of the string, material and thickness of the pick, age of the string on the instrument, the right water content in the wood of the instrument, dry gets you tinny and wispy, you may want to adjust the height of the " Florida" tang so you can play over it without pick noise, and you may want to continue looking for that mandolin that your ear wants. Try a set of DR strings .... they are the brightest in tone in my experience. Luck... R/

[Northwest Steve]

There is a thread for a pick sampler going on right now. There are many picks and would be a good chance to see what you like and if any help find what you are looing for. so get on the list. Along with setup strings can make a big difference. If it were me I would cut down on the quantity and condense the number of instruments and find one good one that really speaks to you.

As for jams....GO. I am a fairly new player and would say an advanced beginner, I have no prior musical experience either. I have been attending some jams. Everyone has been encouraging and accepting. At least you have your prior experience and feel for music to draw on.

[foldedpath]

In my experience, you need the right instrument to start with. But in terms of technique, here's what works for me when I'm looking for "sweet," and especially when aiming to match the tone and power of the E strings to the rest of the strings:

Slight angle on the pick (thumb tilted down).

Pick attack right at the end of the fretboard. It has a wave-shaped cutoff so I'm picking at about where the 21st fret would be, if it had a full "Florida" fretboard extension.

Don't rest your palm on the edge of the bridge. Or if you do, make sure your palm isn't contacting the strings ahead of the saddle, and you're not applying too much pressure that can damp the top's response. This can kill the tone and volume on a responsive mandolin with a top that isn't too thick or braced too heavily. I have a bad habit of doing this, and it always amazes me how much better my mandolin sounds when I lift my hand even a little bit off that reference point at the bridge.

Go through enough string experiments to find the tone you like. I went through a bunch before settling on GHS Silk & Bronze, but you'll have to find your own strings that sound best on your mandolin.

[pops1]

I also find that if my strings are not quite in tune they are brighter (highs), louder (lows) I can tell just by how they sound whether they are in tune. When my E is in tune it is warmer and quieter, out it is brighter and louder. It takes some ear especially for some tuners as they are not that accurate.

[mandroid]

Try More Mandolins.

CH as in Switzerland? .. Swiss Chocolates are sweet.

IDK what 'sweet' sounds like, but I add Sugar to my Coffee for it's taste..

happy with my 1922 A4 .. paddle head.

[fscotte]

Sweet is a hard sound to describe, but "supple" may be more accurate? Suppleness to me means that the G string feels soft and responsive all the way up the fretboard. Almost as if all strings were high tensioned rubber bands. I know an odd way of describing the feel, but it's the only thing I can come up with.

[LadysSolo]

I too would recommend the pick sampler - it is amazing to me how much difference picks make with mandolin tone (much more than with guitar.) Try the Blue Chip in the sampler - I "bit the bullet," and they are now my favorite pick. I have others I use to play away from home (afraid I will lose the Blue Chip,) but they are the favorite.

[fifths]

Hey, I'm kind of a beginner, but I find that variations in right hand technique have way more influence on tone than pick selection at my stage in the journey. Where you hold the pick, at what angle, how tightly it is held, where the strings are played, the force, the follow through, up vs. down, the strings themselves...I think, for me, I'll work that stuff out a little before going pick crazy..I do have my favorites, but they all came from a couple of thick-pick variety packs.
For perspective, try passing your instrument and pick to a more accomplished player to hear what they can get out of it. I was surprised.

[dschonbrun]

Try a Giacomel J12, it has a very sweet tonal quality.

[RodCH]

I may have to get a physics degree just to get some understanding of this. My backpack mandolin arrived via post from France today. Tiny thing, smaller than a ukulele. It likes the big ole Dawg pick.

[WoMando]

Personally, I find GHS PBs (I use lights these days) and GHS Silk & Bronze to be much sweeter sounding than D'Addario J74s. Used the D'Doodlies for years. Of course, YMMV. Still suffering from pick angst, though.

Interesting that, in a previous incarnation, Gibson monels had Big Mon's picture on them Every time I put them on an instrument, I had to remove them because I hated the way they sounded. I might feel different now that I have better instruments.

From a tactile standpoint, the Silk & Bronze are very nice.

Where is this Pick Sampler? I just tried a bunch of V-Picks and found them too clicky-clacky for my taste.

Laura

[WoMando]

If you can put a bevel on a thicker pick, as some have suggested, you may see a difference, too.

[Explorer]

Have you tried picking further away from the bridge? I think a lot of mandolin players don't take advantage of the sweet legato tone and sustain you can get by picking at the 15-17th fret (sul tasto). It takes some practice not to get pick click, but so worth it. Grisman makes a lot of use of this technique (as well as the other side of the spectrum, picking close to the bridge or sul ponticello to get that crisp brittle tone).

I haven't thought about it consciously in a long time, but I did put a lot of time and practice into playing in that 15-17 fret sweet spot without pick click, including getting comfortable at choking up on my grip so the pick just *couldn't* extend past my fingers far enough below the string plain to hit the fingerboard. Doing that work makes *every* instrument you use more versatile, as opposed to trying to find *one* instrument with a particular tone at one picking position.

[mandocrucian]

23 posts and not a single mention of the left (fretting) hand!

Do you really think tone stops after you have selected your favorite pick, or your favorite strings, or when your favorite pick hits your favorite strings? When the plectrum (or RH fingers) start the string vibrating, that is the START of the process, if you are actually serious about "tone", not the end point.

What would BB King sound like without the finger English of LH vibrato? It would probably be as boring as listening to Jimmy Vaughan. Richard Thompson or Mark Knopfler quacking out vibratoless notes like ducks....? - Inconceivable! You could also bring up your favorite fiddle/violin players, or sax players and the same would apply.

And then there's "intonation" beyond what you get from the frets, which on any 12-tone-equal temperament instrument, is not really in tune within the scale. Fiddle players are tweaking the notes, slightly sharp or flat to extract the sweetness of Just tuned intervals (especially with doublestops). Guitarists may slightly bend certain notes to the microtonal pitches which align with the harmonic series. (Think Thompson/Knopler etc) This if often confused with "tone", but it is a different thing.

The one year I was brought in to teach "other" mando at Kaufman's Kamp in 2002, I was on a "Tone" panel discussion with a couple of "name" players. I brought up the suject of 12TET and microtonally tweaking notes to bring out the sweetness and counteracting the inherent dissonances in equal temperament. From the response comments from one of those guys (it would only p.o. people if I named anyone), it was apparent that he really had no idea what I was talking about/demonstrating and I really was flabbergasted, coming from someone of his reputation and resume.

Don't rest your palm on the edge of the bridge. Or if you do, make sure your palm isn't contacting the strings ahead of the saddle, and you're not applying too much pressure that can damp the top's response. This can kill the tone and volume on a responsive mandolin with a top that isn't too thick or braced too heavily. I have a bad habit of doing this, and it always amazes me how much better my mandolin sounds when I lift my hand even a little bit off that reference point at the bridge.

There are times, when palm muting is exactly the sound that is called for. A Chuck Berry rhythm shuffle sounds really corny on fully ringing mando strings. All the punch and percussive drive has been eliminated.

There is no "bad" tone, only tone which is appropriate (or not) for the particular situation/song/rhythm/riff/etc.

Well, I have violated my self-imposed, three-sentence, response limit. (But still kept it relatively brief considering the magnitude of the topic)

NH

[DavidKOS]

.

And then there's "intonation" beyond what you get from the frets, which on any 12-tone-equal temperament instrument, is not really in tune within the scale.

Just to be accurate, a 12 tone equal tempered fretted instrument like a mandolin or guitar IS in tune...to the 12 tone equal tempered scale.

These fretted instruments are not in tune with other instruments that can produce untempered scales such as the various Pythagorean and mean-tone scale.

However, within the 12 tone EQ system they are in tune.