Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

[JeffD]

I would much rather be moved by someone's break, than awed by it.

[JeffD]

... Well said, but hard to specifically practice, occurs as a result of having the melody and progression firmly in place first.

You have nailed something for me. I would think, (just me), that having the melody and chords mostly, if not firmly, in place, would be a prerequisite for taking a break on any tune.

I kind of bristle at the sometimes asked question, "well, what do I play if I don't know the tune?" It what other endeavors does one expect to be able to participate without knowing what to do? If you don't know the tune, learn the tune.

I don't say it out loud though, I just help people who want to learn tunes, and I tolerate in silence those breaks that are obvious one size fits all collections of pre-learned practiced breaks having little or no connection to the tune into which they are inserted.

[CarlM]

If you don't know the tune, learn the tune.

One of my musical goals has been to develop my ear to the point where I can catch enough of the tune to play most of it even if it is new to me. The results are still mixed and may always be. There are some strategies to catch and connect pieces of the tune on the fly. If a song is too complicated or too fast then it doesn't work. That's a time to nod the break off and come back to the song later. It is all learning.

[JeffD]

True, and while I am better at this I am not there yet. It takes many times through for me to "get it" and even then I won't take a break till the next time the tune comes around. I do know folks who can pick up a tune in a couple or three hearings. I am not that kind of prodigy.

[CES]

Depends on my mood. Sometimes I need Charlie Parker, sometimes Lester Young...

Agree that there's merit in both approaches, and I think I prefer a blend of the two. Now if only I could get some "machine gun" runs down

Laughing face (directed at my own feeble skills) should have gone at the end...

[re simmers]

This topic makes me think of Alan Bibey's break on Thanks a Lot many years ago with Third Time Out. Stays with the melody, but lots of good hot licks.

[ralph johansson]

I suppose I'm oldfashioned in emphasizing creativity. Is there any room for that if you impose various rules on your playing? I recall one occasion when me and my group (way back, in my bluegrass days) were running through a song and the guitarist remarked on my soloing: "couldn't you just play a little more of the melody?" And I replied "look, there are four verses and two choruses in this song, all using the same melody, do we really need more of that? How about some variety and contrast?". Of course, one problem in bluegrass is that so many songs share the same chord progression - whch may be one important reason I lost interest. Today, if I were to play bluegrass or bluegrass-derived music, I would spend a great deal of effort on finding or composing material with original and challenging chord progressions.

[Relio]

Yes. I also try Monroe style breaks where he never plays melody, but more arpeggio style.

[JeffD]

I suppose I'm oldfashioned in emphasizing creativity. .

I never thought of creativity being excluded or diminished by being informed by the tune. I am not sure that is what you implied, so forgive me if I missed the point.

The break can be creative, the more the better. It doesn't have to play the melody literally much at all. I just need a sense that the break:

- is in the right tune. Belongs in this tune. Is related to this tune. Is responding to how this tune goes.
- is a spontaneous reaction to the moment, the energy in the music, the energy in the moment for players and audience.

Leaves a whole lot of room for creativity, variety, contrast, homage, in-jokes, and all the other great stuff one can do (well not me but someone) in a great break.

[T.D.Nydn]

I like it wild and always have. If you can play flashy, then do it. " to many notes".. That's what they said about Miles Davis, Paganini and Chopin, just to name a few...

[William Smith]

I like it wild and always have. If you can play flashy, then do it. " to many notes".. That's what they said about Miles Davis, Paganini and Chopin, just to name a few...

Agree buddy, I remember years ago my dad asked my uncle Gene Johnson who years ago could/pry still can play the same song 5 different ways with loads of different notes/different ways and speeds why "does Tony Rice put so many notes that sometime stray off the melody" Genes' reply "because he can" Happy Birthday today for Gene

[Jim Hudson]

Great discussion. I'd like to develop the skill level, or melodic sense, to be able to be creative roughly within the melody, and the more spontaneously it could happen, the better. Currently, my improvised leads are generally arpeggiated chord progressions and if I do something that relates to the melody it's largely accidental. I've played with a few people who seem to be able to spontaneously play melodically related leads, and envy that ability. I'm now making a concerted effort to regularly take tunes from my minds ear to the fingerboard, especially tunes I've not already memorized a lead for. I regret not doing this sooner. There's so much material out there is so easy to just pick up a book and start playing out of it instead of training your ear. I've also started doing ear training on a phone app. It's Very Challenging! A friend asked what use it is, and I could only reply that music is essentially the space (or interval) between the notes combined with rhythm. Those intervals are everything! (I could forgive him because he's a drummer).

[AlanN]

The 'too many notes' rap...gotta love it.

I pick with a banjo man at a regular jam. He is older, plays what he plays, that's it. One time, I asked him if he knew this tune...and proceeded to pick the simple head to Dixie Hoedown, in G. That melody is so straightforward that it's easy to hear the changes. His response? You guessed it..."Too many notes".

sigh...

[Steve Ostrander]

I heard a famous musician--I can't remember who--once say (and I'm paraphrasing here) "It took me twenty years to learn when to play, and another twenty to learn when not to." So, really fast machine gun licks aren't all there is to improvising. Some of the best impov I've heard is more about phrasing and embellishment, as Michael Daves asserts. Having said that, CT wouldn't be CT without the fast licks and complete coverage of the fret board. It works for him. But too many people strive to plat just like WSM, or CT, when they should be developing their own style.

[Steve Ostrander]

The 'too many notes' rap...gotta love it.

Emperor Joseph II: My dear young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect.

Mozart: Which few did you have in mind, your Majesty?

[JonDoug]

I take the OP's comment rather differently than most here. I think he's talking about the difference between an intermediate player and an advanced player. As intermediate players, we get wrapped up into knowing the fretboard, tone, left-right hand coordination, etc.--and work to master those. That focus, however, can overwhelm our fundamental skills of connecting our ears and our hands. I'm convinced that great players understand what they are playing more profoundly than most of us, whether they come from a tradition that puts strict limits on personal interpretation (classical, Celtic) or wildly celebrates it (jazz). Written-out solos give us the ability to mimic a great player briefly--but many of us, including myself, get beguiled by "how do they do that?" in a technical sense instead of "why do they do that?" I've found that starting with the melody and chords to build your own solo helps tremendously, as the OP suggests.

[farmerjones]

I have to back my truck up a little. To me, jamming and playing in a band format are two different things. I often try to seek out jams with perfect strangers. There's a sort of sandbox etiquette that comes along with Bluegrass jamming with total strangers. It is so the whole group can make music as best as possible, as soon as possible. This is the reason I answered as I did. (honor the melody)

Now then, I make less (if not none) of a distinction between jamming with good friends and playing in a band. From the get-go, everybody is on the same page. All member are aware of each other's capabilities. This is a time when we can "wring it out."
Creativity is the order of the hour, etc. ("..yeah, we played the melody last week.")


I second Mr. Hopkins advice about playing fiddle tunes for getting one's head around linear melodies. Also there is the matter of getting the brain out of the chord arpeggio, and into the whole scale. The melody is in there, but it's so easy to just play the chord. I don't know if it's a left brain/right brain thing, but it's obviously a requirement to compartmentalize the melody and the chord progression. One that can only flesh out melodies is at a similar disadvantage as one who only fleshes out chord progressions.
I know this from both sides, as once a low hour fiddle player, and now a low hour piano player.

[CarlM]

I suppose I'm oldfashioned in emphasizing creativity. Is there any room for that if you impose various rules on your playing?

I try to use the yardstick that someone who has heard the tune should still be able to recognize what song I am playing. Once in a workshop with David Grier, he was explaining how to improvise and be creative with the melody. He played Wildwood Flower starting with a straightforward, pretty much Maybelle Carter rendition and made changes to it piece by piece till it was radically different. He played it about 12 or 15 different ways. But every single one of them would have been instantly recognized as Wildwood Flower if my aunt or grandma listened to it. He is as creative as anyone out there but showed it is possible to be very creative without losing the melody.

The blues is about as restrictive of a form as there is yet people still find ways to express themselves within that form. Teachers have given me creativity exercises where we place artificial restrictions such as play Soldiers Joy but confine yourself to the second and third string or a range of frets or using crosspicking only or double stops or to add a lot of half steps into and out of the melody. The boundaries can enhance creativity rather than restrict it.

I believe in challenging boundaries but recognizing them. If I cross them know where they are and why I am crossing them. There have to be some rules. Random gobs of notes or sounds with no form is just noise, not music. Melody, timing and rhythm are crucial pieces that make what we are doing music rather than noise.

[Relio]

You have nailed something for me. I would think, (just me), that having the melody and chords mostly, if not firmly, in place, would be a prerequisite for taking a break on any tune.

I kind of bristle at the sometimes asked question, "well, what do I play if I don't know the tune?" It what other endeavors does one expect to be able to participate without knowing what to do? If you don't know the tune, learn the tune.

I don't say it out loud though, I just help people who want to learn tunes, and I tolerate in silence those breaks that are obvious one size fits all collections of pre-learned practiced breaks having little or no connection to the tune into which they are inserted.

I listen to recordings of a guy that used to play a good amount of breaks that were pre-learned breaks/arpeggios and had no hint of melody. His name was Bill Monroe, have you heard of him? JeffD, I've noticed over the last few weeks that you have some strong opinions on how someone should select an instrument and how they should approach playing it. I'd love to see some videos of you playing, to see how music should REALLY sound. I wish MC had a sort of musical skill level rating system for its members so someone could know if they're getting advice from an advanced player or a hack.

[Chuck Leyda]

Great discussion. I think it's important, no matter your skill level, to follow your curiosity and have fun. Very few people change the musical landscape and players tend to find their jamming circle and/or audience when they follow what moves them.

Right now I'm having fun trying to make the octave mandolin sound a bit like a clawhammer banjo. Wouldn't recommend it as the way to play but at the moment it's fun and the trio I play with likes it.

[Josh Levine]

I believe in challenging boundaries but recognizing them. If I cross them know where they are and why I am crossing them. There have to be some rules. Random gobs of notes or sounds with no form is just noise, not music. Melody, timing and rhythm are crucial pieces that make what we are doing music rather than noise.

This belongs in a signature or sticky or something.

[farmerjones]

Yes. I also try Monroe style breaks where he never plays melody, but more arpeggio style.

Do you have a youtube example of Bill Monroe playing like that?

[Relio]

Do you have a youtube example of Bill Monroe playing like that?

https://youtu.be/VjLDvR4-Xj4

[Willie Poole]

This is right up my alley....If you are playing bluegrass keep it as close to the melody as you can on the first part of the break and then throw in some extra notes on the second part, that way the audience knows what you are playing....I have heard mandolin players kick off a song and not one person listening could tell what the song was...I also believe that most of the pickers that play "extra notes" are those that have taken music lessons on a fiddle, possibly during high school...There is room for this kind of music when playing music other than bluegrass or old country so have at it, please don`t compare what is being played on classical songs with what is being played in bluegrass, not even a good idea....

Mentioned above was Gene Johnson, well one time I was looking at his Loar and I played a few tunes on it and he told me he wished he could play like that and I said you have to be kidding and he said no, you are sticking right to the melody and I can`t do that, I throw in a few scales because I have a hard time hearing and remembering the melody, he was also a tenor singer and that may have something to do with any improvising he did on the mandolin...

Remember when playing bluegrass, (KISS) "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID" That is the way it was when it first started...

Great post with great discussions...Thanks for posting it.....

Willie

[Beanzy]

Then again, if this were a bluegrass specific post it would be in the Bluegrass section rather than the General Mandolin Discussions.