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Thread: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

  1. #1
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    Default Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I am squarely an intermediate player, despite my many years of playing. I have worked hard to get some "fancy" leads under my fingers and can even pull one off in a jam occasionally. I've made the statement at gigs and jams that my listeners get a lot of notes for their money. At this point, however, I am finding myself gravitating back to the simpler, more melodic leads. It allows me to keep the chord progression in mind better and then improvise from there. I almost wish I had never learned some of the "lots-a-notes" leads I spent so much time trying to master. I know great players will define the melody with the first lead and then expand on the melodic ideas with their second lead. I think the fancy leads took my mind off the melody and, more importantly, the chord progression. As such I've not developed my melodic sense as well as I could have, given the amount of practice time I've put in.

    I encourage other beginning to intermediate players to avoid being distracted from the melody and the chord progression just to show off your licks.

    Have others gone down this road?

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    The older I get, the more impressed I am with people who are monster players but keep it reigned in most of the time. My dad teaches mando, and he preaches to play the melody with slight embellishment. That said, it's pretty awesome to hear somebody really throwing down, like Mike Marshall & Chris Thile's duet album.

    Now, THAT said, most everything either of those guys do starts with defining the melody.
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    Fingers of Concrete ccravens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I agree, and post a few similar sentiments from the late great Thelonious Monk (sorry for the all caps):

    "STOP PLAYING ALL THOSE WEIRD NOTES, PLAY THE MELODY!"

    "WHAT YOU DON’T PLAY CAN BE MORE IMPORTANT THAT WHAT YOU DO"

    "ALWAYS LEAVE THEM WANTING MORE."
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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Jim,
    I also consider myself to be an intermediate player and like you I prefer to hear the melody. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands, 30 years as a photographer developing prints does that to you. I can appreciate the ability of those players who can work the neck like lightening, but it is not for me. I am learning to improvise on the melody but not overpower it.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Adam Steffy comes to mind, always such tasty melodic leads.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I haven't shared the journey as I am at best a mediocre improviser, and spontaneous real time composition in public is never something I look forward to. Especially when the melody itself is often so beautiful.

    That said, let me say this. (Love that phrase.)

    I think we agree. An improvisation is most to my taste when it is informed by the melody. Perhaps not slavishly attached to the melody, but at the very least playing the same tune a different way. I love it especially when the improvisation enhances the drama or the narrative logic of the melody, making me ache to get to the conclusion perhaps even more that the straight tune would have, or making me feel the story of the tune a little stronger.

    The classic example, for me, is outside the mandolin world. Its Eva Cassidy singing Over the Rainbow. This has been the ideal of my idea of improvisation for a while.



    Lots to emulate there.

    Of course if it takes a lot of notes to do that, its ok. Im not against a high note count or anti-brilliant playing. I am just not enamored of improvisation that shows off the player more than the tune.
    Last edited by JeffD; Aug-08-2016 at 10:10pm.
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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    George, i too have developed arthritis in the base of my left thumb ... hurts, but I still sometimes would like to be able to, as JeffD says, play an improvisation "informed by the melody". Well said, but hard to specifically practice, occurs as a result of having the melody and progression firmly in place first.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I like to play the melody in my head but run a counter-melody or soprano accompaniment on the mandoln. That way the melody is there but in a complimentary way.
    Eoin



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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I don't even like to watch/listen to flashy pickers anymore. Give me some simple and melodic playing any day.
    ...

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Reading about Earl Scruggs, if he got too fancy when practicing at home his mother would call out ' Earl I can't hear the tune '

    Sums it up well.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Good point Jim. Starting out as a new player, many notes will occupy your time but melody based breaks inform your ear and your playing. I enjoy both style breaks but melody based breaks are my practice focus since watching this video 10 times:


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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I hit a lot of notes and hope the melody sneaks in...

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I'm in agreement. To be honest, it's one of the reasons I've really taken to Old-Time music and drifted away from all the hot bluegrass stuff.

    I don't mind someone showing off their licks. What bothers me, though, is that there's a style of mandolin playing that a lot of people are trying to emulate, which really changes the flavor of the music. I don't want to say it's "jazzy", but it does seem to use big flurries of notes, including scale notes that don't fit the chord progression or the key. It no longer sounds like bluegrass to me. Yes, it's very impressive, but it affects the flow and feel of the tune to the point where I find it off-putting.

    Fast playing with lots of notes can still sound great, with plenty of licks and fancy stuff, but sticking more closely to the chord progression and melody. I should still be able to recognize the tune.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Hey Jim, I know you. How's things?

    A device I use to keep the melody in mind while improvising, is to keep the rhthym the same on the improvised line, but change some of the notes. So a quarter note in the melody is a quarter note on the improvised line, eighth equals eighth, etc. The listener, and the player, can keep track of things a little easier. For example, the first few notes of Clinch Mountain Backstep are very distinctive. Use that cadence but change up the notes.

    Also, if you just can't help yourself, throw in a flourish on the tag line at the end of a solo, or maybe between phrases, but keep the rest pretty straight.

    Hope that makes sense.

    Tim Wilson

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I want to hear a player that can do both. With timing and taste a flurry of tones can accentuate the melody. As in poetry Haiku is a marvelous form, but so is prose. Nothing is wrong with either approach but a solid combination of both wakes up my ear and starts my foot tapping........ R/
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  26. #16

    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    When I'm in a jam and somebody's break is a bunch of chord arpeggios, I naturally think the person couldn't grab the melody fast enough. Busted, in other words. The person may actually know the tune inside and out, but I think many jammers think as I do.
    Chord arpeggios are a survival trick, or something to pull out if you get a second break. Yes, it is just a jam. But serving the tune/song keeps it a community circle. More than a brief departure, changes the dynamic.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    I should still be able to recognize the tune.
    I've come full circle on this. Once the tune has went around a few times and the main melody has been explored I kinda like a creative take that blends with the melody but might not be recognizable on it's own.

    Check out the June Apple mandolin solo in this article mp3 link at 1:37:

    New-Music-from-Tim-Connell-and-Eric-Skye-June-Apple

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I'm also impressed by the folks who can put in machine gun type notes. However, this gets old to me and the melody seems to be a more tasteful way to go, in my humble opinion.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I play in different groups and circles. Old time music is not meant for jamming, keep to the melody. There is a special feel when everyone is playing the same melody.

    Songs I will improvise a lead. Since the singer is singing the melody each verse that's not what I want to do. Depending on the song of course, some I will stay closer than others.

    I don't play much bluegrass, but use the scales in my leads so I am combining old time, bluegrass, blues, folk into a lead that becomes my style.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Good morning Tim. Thanks for the input. Things are good, just trying to bust through my current plateau ... until the next one! Wishing I had paid more attention to learning melodies - I like your idea of using the melody rhythms. That takes a little of the pressure off to reproduce the melody precisely. Hope to do some picking with you soon.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Mark, that Micheal Daves vid was the inspiration for my sentiments here. I saw it first the other day here on the cafe. Thanks for posting. He states it elegantly, both vocally and instrumentally. I suppose one of the benefits of playing bluegrass is that the vocals are fairly complex with lots of slides and dips, but the same can be applied to other genres.

  32. #22

    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    When I work out a solo to a vocal tune I use a technique that Mike Marshall suggests. Write out the melody over the chord progression and then determine which notes are the "Ice Cream Truck" notes. The notes that ...if the ice cream truck came around the corner playing, you would recognize the tune. These are the essential notes or "target" notes that must be in your solo to assist with defining the melody. It's a very fun exercise and the results can be very interesting.

  33. #23
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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    I'd suggest, if OP wants to adopt a more "melodic" style, to learn some fiddle tunes -- just the melody -- and play them cleanly as possible. Then start improvising off the melody, perhaps playing some harmony notes, or emphasizing the chord transitions by playing the mandolin equivalent of guitar "bass runs" rather than the strict melody.

    I have been guilty of learning a repertoire of "standard licks" which I call on when playing an unfamiliar tune -- useful, but also a bit of a crutch that leads me away from learning, and clearly stating, the melody. There is another issue, which is in banjo-led bluegrass, many of the instrumentals are built around a series of arpeggiated 5-string licks, which don't translate as well to the more "linear" mandolin. So one improvises a mandolin break over the chords, which may suggest the banjo melody, but not follow it note-for-note. This is one reason I suggest fiddle tunes as a transitional repertoire, since the identical tunings of the two instruments make the tunes "sit easier" on the mandolin.

    Instrumental pyrotechnics can be crowd-pleasing, and can also be a way of establishing players' stature with other musicians, but they also, sometimes, detract from clearly playing the music so that both audience and musicians relate to the way it was intended to be played.
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  35. #24

    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Am I talking just to be talking or do I have something to say? Figuring out what to say and how to say it is the beauty of the music. I do not believe it is melody vs lots of notes. The melody should always be there whether it has lots of notes or a few notes. Machine gunning notes can be like the guy that talks ninety miles an hour with no content. Yet saying too little can be wrong also. Like having a conversation with someone who speaks in monosyllables; dull and difficult. Art, such as music, is communication of emotion, of things that maybe cannot be expressed in words. The goal is to make that connection and communicate it.

    Some nights I am able to achieve that expression, to have something to say and say it well and musically. Other nights it gets garbled but my goal is always to reach for that clear statement with however many or few notes it takes.

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    Default Re: Lots of notes vs. defining the melody

    Jazz Re harmonizes the Chord Changes of Popular songs , then Improvises Melody lines with embellishments to that new Melody .
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