Journeying through musical styles on mandolin

[chris.burcher]

I had the pleasure of interviewing Tony Rice over the phone in the mid-90s and he said something that I have just come to understand.

I asked him about the 'whole Grisman' thing and one of the things he said that stuck out in my mind was "I just started to hear different sounds coming out of the guitar" - with respect to 'switching' from his progressive bluegrass style to dawg music and more complex chord structure, more adventurous note selection, or whatever.

I am at the point where I am hearing different sounds coming out of my mandolin. I find this a mixed blessing and wonder if that's what Tony was talking about. On the one hand, I'm excited to explore music for music's sake. I was really pursuing bluegrass for a long time but have always 'heard' more jazzy, dawggy, or whatever songs in my head, but lacked (lack) the real musical understanding to make those sounds happen. So the struggle now is to understand jazz like I came to understand bluegrass and that is a pretty steep mountain to climb. I am finding it a bit frustrating as I have essentially become a worse player because, whereas I have the skills to hit the fairly simplistic bluegrass structure pretty hard, I just haven't developed the musical encyclopedia to do what I hear anymore. Mostly because what I hear is just harder and more complex, but also because I don't understand the fretboard or really music.

Also similar is that when I was younger I just didn't get Bill Monroe and had to 'mature' a bit before i really appreciated his playing. It is the same now for me with Jethro and Don Stiernberg, etc. While i always appreciated this stuff, I just didn't 'get' it. Man, do I ever get it now. At least my ears get it, my hands and brain are a different story.

Anyway, figured you guys could relate and perhaps offer some stories or advice about how you dealt with approaching something new and 'taking two steps back and one step forward'.

Chris

[catmandu2]

...I am finding it a bit frustrating as I have essentially become a worse player because, whereas I have the skills to hit the fairly simplistic bluegrass structure pretty hard, I just haven't developed the musical encyclopedia to do what I hear anymore.


Mostly because what I hear is just harder and more complex, but also because I don't understand the fretboard or really music.

'Jazz' is certainly an idiom requiring technical knowledge and skill. Your feelings are understandable. But if you love the music, keep pursuit.

Here's a thread (from another/jazz site) that you may find interesting - reflections on the challenge of jazz/highly technical forms.. http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthr...oin-a-gym-quot

[chris.burcher]

thanks for the link, cat. Interesting read. Though I wasn't trying to come across as whining that i'm not good enough, I do suffer from that syndrome. I do love the music and will continue to pursue as long as I can. Trying to wrap my head around theory, as frustrating as it is, is one of the most rewarding (albeit slow) parts of this journey so far.

[catmandu2]

No I didn't mean to imply that, chris. What I find interesting in that thread is the dilemma - we're immersed in highly refined music - its prevalence in our culture can make us underappreciate the simple and uncomplicated (in fact, I quit playing guitar for a period in the early 80s after hearing Tony Rice ).

Jazz is an art form generally requiring mastery. It's a life-long pursuit.

[chris.burcher]

I hear you!! Tony Rice is a good example, going back to bluegrass and maybe more attention and album sales form something that was amazing but probably not as available to the average listener.

Another thing he told me is that he always wanted to record an album with a three piece jazz ensemble of bass, drums, and piano with his guitar. Too bad we are likely to never hear that. So maybe even T had some goals he may not have enough time to accomplish.

Funny, I was also lucky to interview Bela Fleck and we talked about this. He referred to it as 'chasing the carrot' and that we never really get the carrot but if it weren't for the chase we may be more likely to give up the journey!

[Beanzy]

I found it is very useful to explore sounds on the actual instrument rather than try to come at it from a theory-heavy stanpoint.
Looking at what types of chords feature in the particular jazz styles I like to hear, then becoming familiar with them on the mandolin.
I start by using the most bog-standard and straight-forward versions of chords and then just experiment by playing them in and out of progressions I have heard used. By hearing them in a context you engrain their function in your ear. It becomes a gut level understanding of what they can do in a particular situation. Once you get that, then you can experiment with altering them to gain a family of sounds you are familiar with and which make an emotional sense. It can seem vast, but really it's all just playing with music and a previous error can be reused on purpose when you want to achieve that effect again. Errors are great learning tools so we need to make loads.

[JeffD]

When I started mandolin, I have to admit, I had never knowingly heard a mandolin recording. I played for many years without knowing anything about bluegrass. I just played music I heard on tv or radio or my parents records.

A large part of my mandolin playing has been emulating fiddle, because I fell in love with fiddle tunes, and I was the only mandolin player in the jam. It hasn't been until the last chunk of years that I ever really listened to mandolin recordings with an ear to emulate them. While I do that now, from time to time, most of what I am inspired to play does not come from what has been traditionally played on mandolin, or from recorded mandolin players.

I am not recommending this approach, because I very obviously have missed a lot, and have had to frantically catch up. But I relate this to say that the melodies and harmonies and riffs I hear in my head are rarely, if ever, from someone's mandolin playing.

Right this minute I seem to be trying for a lot of the little riffs and snatches from Charlie Poole's banjo playing. I really love his straight ahead approach and the seemingly unadorned simplicity of his phrases. Its what I do on mandolin a lot these days.


I do recommend listening and emulating other instruments, now and then, or like me, most of the time.

[farmerjones]

I do recommend listening and emulating other instruments, now and then, or like me, most of the time.

Nope. Didn't work. Had to get the instruments. Had to learn the instruments. DW praying I don't get into bassoons or kettledrums.


"Jazz" is such a broad brushstroke. Everything from Preservation Hall to Spyro Gyra.
I look at it linguistically. All styles, not just Jazz, have their respective vocabulary. The good part is, even with less than a sophisticated vocabulary, one can still speak and be understood. Plus, one can always build. As far as curiosity takes us. If you know five chords in four keys, nobody can take that away from you. Just because somebody is playing augmented 9th & 11th in B, doesn't make you less of a musician. Everybody's vocabulary ends somewhere.

[darylcrisp]

Chris
not sure if this would appeal, but I just joined Matts 102 class and more things made sense after that 90 minute class, than everything I've read, practiced and watched, in the past year plus.

Matts presentation is excellent, and where its a 4 week session, I think you feel a sense of responsibility to work hard those weeks and keep up. Lots of material covered and left to work on after the class. You've only missed one class, and you can easily review the whole video on the learning website provided after you join. You get PFD's for everything, and extra video to watch, etc

Its different than most regular video type learning situations.

http://www.mattflinner.com/2016/07/s...ii-curriculum/

[chris.burcher]

Thanks Daryl - I saw where you were taking that class and considered it myself, but (drumroll, please) I just had a new baby! So I haven't even been playing much, just strategizing the next phase once I regain the time to play/practice.

I'm actually looking into doing a few one-on-one session with someone on skype to assess sort of where I am and what to focus on for the next few months.

[Pete Martin]

I find a 'hero", someone who I want to taylor my sound after.

For mandolin in the 80s: Sam Bush
Texas Fiddle 90s: Benny Thomasson
Bluegrass fiddle 90s: Kenny Baker
Jazz mandolin currently: Wes Montgomery

I learn as much as I can about the way they play through transcribing and learning their material and model my style after them. Takes a while but it is very rewarding study.

While there are others I learn from, these are the main focus.

[darylcrisp]

Thanks Daryl - I saw where you were taking that class and considered it myself, but (drumroll, please) I just had a new baby! So I haven't even been playing much, just strategizing the next phase once I regain the time to play/practice.

I'm actually looking into doing a few one-on-one session with someone on skype to assess sort of where I am and what to focus on for the next few months.

I think Matt does Skype lessons also, but if I were doing Skype and had your ability already, Emory Lester is who I would tag on with.
d

[PhilGox]

Hello,

I think people shouldn't be afraid by learning different things and styles.
For exemple, it is true that jazz theory can seem "high level" to learn.
I don't master it but it never prevent me from playing jazzy things without complex.

The same with any styles:
I'm not Irish but I can play things of my own that sound quite Irish.
I'm not african but I play sort of mandola or oud things with my mandolin or banjo.
I can play rock or funk or reggae too.
I also have fun to play "valse musette" tunes that are written for accordeon.

All you need at first is to get one or two easy technique or tricks that make sound like the style you want to explore.
It gives you a start to have fun in this style and then you can go further if you want.
Learning typical scales and chords gives good vocabulary.
Learning too play by ear is very important too.

I had done this way for bass and trumpet.
Playing anything that came in my ear regardless if it is made for this instrument or not.
Now I apply this to mandolin too.
When I have five minutes to spend, I ear a melody in my head and try to play it on the fly.
Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but with time it becomes every day more easy.

I will never be a jazz master but I can have much fun to play little jazzy tunes with my friends.

I have noticed that musiciens often consider jazz as very hard to learn and play.
It is only true if your goal is to reach the top.
Anyway at high level, any style is hard to play.
But we don't need to reach high level to enjoy our instrument.
So don't be afraid and have fun!