Pickups in the monitors, Mics in the mains

[BrianWilliam]

A band that I perform with wants to reconfigure their live sound set up so that everyone has a instrument pickup and instrument mic which would route to the monitors and mains respectively.

I said "sure" because it's the bandleader's call but feel like it's overly complicated considering the small shows we have played thus far. It doesn't help that I dislike pickups on acoustic instruments.

Anyway, please explain the benefits of this pickup/mic configuration. Thanks!

[Eric C.]

Sounds like stage volume might be too loud? I would address that before buying hundreds of dollars worth of pick-ups and preamps to go with them.

There are also many digital mixers these days with EQ for the monitors that would address most feedback issues you might be experiencing.

Also, just turning a monitor slightly left/right here and there would help reduce feedback.

[BrianWilliam]

It hasn't been too loud so far but I've been using an instrument mic. Maybe I've been holding the volume back

But, the band seems set on this new configuration. What are the benefits?

[Eric C.]

What is the main reason they are wanting to do this?

[CarlM]

Is the person wanting pickups a guitarist? Guitars sometimes get buried trying to work through a mic.

[BrianWilliam]

What is the main reason they are wanting to do this?

Not sure. But I'm confident that I'll be tripping over my pickup cable.

[BrianWilliam]

Is the person wanting pickups a guitarist? Guitars sometimes get buried trying to work through a mic.

Yes. At the last show we were a trio he was using a pickup. I had my clip on mic. Bass was a pickup too.

[mandowilli]

The benefit would be that the mic is less prone to onstage feedback through the monitor by virtue of the fact that it is not in the monitor. You would only hear the pickup onstage and the mains would carry your mic signal.

I love the sound of playing into a mic but after years of it being a wild card in respect to feedback at every gig I opted to go with a pickup and quality preamp. In my way of thinking, the difference in the loss of quality of my signal to the audience is not as important as not having to work hard on my sound at every gig. It's more relaxing and being more relaxed helps my sound more than anything.

Hey, be thankful that someone else in the group is working the sound!

[BrianWilliam]

The benefit would be that the mic is less prone to onstage feedback through the monitor by virtue of the fact that it is not in the monitor. You would only hear the pickup onstage and the mains would carry your mic signal.

Will the mic still hear the pickup signals coming through the monitors?

[Folkmusician.com]

I can see the advantage of a setup like this. If you have a good board with plenty of routing options, the setup shouldn't be a big deal. Especially with any of the nice digital mixers. You can recall your presets and only need to do minor tweaking.

In most live situations, having all of the instruments miced can make for a muddy mix in the mains, let alone the trouble that the monitors add.

With a setup like this, I'll bet the best mix would actually end up bringing some of the pickups into the mains as well.

Will the mic still hear the pickup signals coming through the monitors?

Yes, mics hear everything. The wider the pickup pattern, the more of a problem this is. With a tighter pickup pattern, you have to be extremely careful about moving around.

A pickup and clip-on mic would be a great option. This could run through one stereo cable.

[mandowilli]

Will the mic still hear the pickup signals coming through the monitors?

You can also put the mic signal in the monitor up to the point that it starts to be a problem but you will be relying on the pickup for most of the monitor volume.

[farmerjones]

Ima pickup convert, for live gigs. I think watching Sammy Bush helped win me over. Also there's these "Rig Run-down" video interviews. Don't necessarily interview the artist but the set-up person. Learned a lot about pedals too. Don't think acoustic players don't have stomp boxes, they do. Learned a lot about redundancy and backup plans too. What to do, when "this" or "that" doesn't work. Very handy.

[Mandoplumb]

Ima pickup convert, for live gigs. I think watching Sammy Bush helped win me over. Also there's these "Rig Run-down" video interviews. Don't necessarily interview the artist but the set-up person. Learned a lot about pedals too. Don't think acoustic players don't have stomp boxes, they do. Learned a lot about redundancy and backup plans too. What to do, when "this" or "that" doesn't work. Very handy.

All "acoustic" players don't have stomp boxes. There is no wire from my mandolin so all I could stomp is the guitar players foot. I don't really mean to start anything, just want you to know that some acoustic band are still 100% acoustic. ( not really we use mics but you know what I mean)

[pops1]

We have gone to pickup in instruments and my mandolin sounds very good. I tried a small venue gig with a mic and had to work so hard I didn't enjoy it at all. I can play light with a pickup and be heard. My mounting of the pickup is different tho, I used two layers of double stick tape both glued in with super glue gel, it's a warmer buffer than gluing the pickup to the sound board. Redeye preamp or Orchid and sound is really good. As with all pickups the louder you get the less acoustic it sounds and there have been gigs where I used both and stepped up the the mic for extra in leads. In the period gigs we were doing for Civil War dances it was nice to not have a mic, it looked better and we could talk on stage without the audience hearing us. If your venue is so large or loud that it's hard to get mics to the level you need without feedback problems I doubt anyone will hear the difference in sound. Using both helps keep a good sound with extra volume, like double mics for each instrument with less hassle.

[almeriastrings]

Normally you would only require that kind of setup if you wanted really high stage/monitor volumes. It can reduce the possibility of feedback... but it is not bulletproof. Other things come into play, also. Reflections, pickup from the mics, phasing issues, comb filtering... it can be difficult to get a 'clean' sound on the FOH if the entire stage is flooded with multiple sources at high volume. So, in a sense, it can prove self-defeating. Sam Bush does use that approach and it works for him. An old Barcus Berry 'Hot Dot' feeding the monitor and a nice Countryman Isomax lav mic to FOH. He is rather known for playing "fairly loud", however.... not sure why it would be needed at normal levels. To be honest, I'd look at trying to reduce stage levels, not increase them. Numerous advantages. One big reason why IEM's are so popular these days. Cleans up the sound a lot, hugely reduces feedback problems, and allows very sophisticated personal monitor mixes.

[pit lenz]

To be honest, I'd look at trying to reduce stage levels, not increase them.

Absolutely true!

still, I think Sam's setup is older than modern monitor setups with digital mixers and their surgery tool precise processing. Plus, it's a lot easier when you play a festival with no soundcheck and a quick changeover. You can start your set with a quick-and-dirty pickup signal in the monitor and finetune then. I tried just the same combination (k&k and Sennheiser 104 lav through a stereo jack) and was always the first instrument up and running in such a situation...

[pops1]

To be honest, I'd look at trying to reduce stage levels, not increase them.

I like my monitors loud enough to hear everyone, but not to be able to tell the sound is coming from the monitors.

[farmerjones]

( not really we use mics but you know what I mean)

Yes, and I recon you knew what I meant too.
I'd like nothing better than to keep it strictly wooden, but the quest for "louder" is a necessary evil. However, a "better loud" is subjective. It could mean anything, including stomp boxes.

By gosh this gets me thinking about one of those loopers tho:

Andrew Bird & Chris Thile, Live from the Great Room

[DHopkins]

I use internal pickups on both of my Breedloves because I tend to move around on stage to interact with the audience and the other musicians. It also helps with the feedback problem because there are occasions when the monitors have to be very close to the voice mics because of a small performance area. When we make our first million, we'll invest in a quality wireless monitor system.

[mandroid]

<guess> Notch filter out feedback producing frequencies to the monitors .. source via Pickup

Give the full range out thru the Mains Thru Microphone to the Paying Customers?

FOH Sound board and a Tech will probably be needed..

(N/A for small Bar Gigs)

[BrianWilliam]

(N/A for small Bar Gigs)

That's my take. But I'll go along with new configuration because that's what the band leader wants.

Thanks to all for the insight.

[DHopkins]

FWIW, Behringer makes a feedback remover. I've never used one. If it works, it might have its place in some live gig scenes.

[BrianWilliam]

I have the dbx gorack. Going to try it out tonight with an outfit that prefers mics